Stages of Enlightenment

[Aloka]

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Ajahn Sona talks about the different stages of enlightenment (approx 26 minutes)




Any thoughts about the talk ?

[DooDoot]

I think "once-returner" is a questionable translation. I think it might mean "occasional returner". Iti 96 says the returner returns to sensuality.

Bhikkhus, one bound by the bond of sensual desire and by the bond of being is a returner, one who comes back to this state.

https://suttacentral.net/iti96/en/ireland

[cappuccino]

I think "once-returner" is a questionable translation.

Fettered by both these bonds—
The sensual bond and the bond of being—
Living beings continue in saṁsāra,
Journeying on to birth and death.

The Bonds

[SarathW]

I think "once-returner" is a questionable translation. I think it might mean "occasional returner". Iti 96 says the returner returns to sensuality.

Bhikkhus, one bound by the bond of sensual desire and by the bond of being is a returner, one who comes back to this state.

https://suttacentral.net/iti96/en/ireland

This is the most sensible answer I ever heard on once Returner. What is the literal translation of Sakdhagami? Where this “once” came from?

[DooDoot]

This is the most sensible answer I ever heard on once Returner. What is the literal translation of Sakdhagami? Where this “once” came from?

Sakad can mean "once" but it can also mean "occasional", at least in Sanskrit. At least one prominent scholar shares my point of view (i cannot recall who).

[Inedible]

So if a Once Returner isn't a Once Returner any longer, why bother keeping it as a separate stage? The Stream Enterer comes back up to seven times. This contains within it the possibility of Occasional Returner with no need for a separate term. If anything it sounds like a step down, with the possibility of more than seven returns.

[DooDoot]

So if a Once Returner isn't a Once Returner any longer, why bother keeping it as a separate stage? The Stream Enterer comes back up to seven times. This contains within it the possibility of Occasional Returner with no need for a separate term. If anything it sounds like a step down, with the possibility of more than seven returns.

What was being discussed is Iti 96, how it appears to define a once-returner as returning to sensuality. We were not discussing reincarnation.

Therefore, unlike a stream-enterer, a once-returner has experienced jhanas (which is another 'world', per MN 79) but their mind occasionally delights in sensuality, such as if given delicious food; thus their mind returns to sensuality again, even though mostly abiding in meditative pleasure.

Since suttas, such as MN 118, say a once-returner is a living individual living in the Sangha, it would seem strange to classify an individual as a once-returner based on reincarnation if that individual is mostly likely to reach Arahantship in the present life.

While those suttas that classify a once-returner at the ending of their life may support the reincarnation views; the suttas such as MN 118 that say once-returners are living in the Sangha do not; because it is expected every Arahant was once a once-returner at one stage of their life.

For example, most Arahants in the suttas, such as Kondanna, Sariputta & Moggallana, were once declared to be Stream-Enterers. Obviously, there was not seven more lifetimes for these Stream-Enterers.

Since most Arahants went through four stages of Enlightenment; it appears strange to regard the four stages as related to reincarnation.

Regards

[Ceisiwr]

In Iti 96 we find:

Ye ca kāme pahantvāna,

Kāme is the vocative plural of "kāma". Kāme, like kāmā, refers to the 5 senses. So it is a return to the world of the 5 senses (plus mind), not to "sensuality". This supports the idea of rebirth.

kāma, m. [ts., cf. BHSD, SWTF, Encyclop. of Buddhism VI, 1 1996 s.v.; Hôb. s.v. ai], 1. (mostly in sg.) wish, desire, pleasure; 2. (in pl.) the objects of sensual pleasure viz. rūpa, sadda, gandha, rasa, phoṭṭhabba,

https://cpd.uni-koeln.de/search?article_id=26454

Naturally a mind which seeks pleasurable sense objects will give rise to the āyatanāni at death in a new existence, since attention is the condition for the bifurcation of experience into the abodes (āyatanāni) of vision and forms etc (as per MN 28). Incidentally, this is why there is no experience of the 5 senses in the jhānā:

Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati;
It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sense objects, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.