Questions about good and bad

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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mjaviem
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Questions about good and bad

Post by mjaviem »

Hi. What's your understanding of the following:
  • How it is possible that good and bad behavior are absolutely good and bad and not only good and bad in regard to the appreciation of the community.(e.g., to this community of people lying is wrong but to that other community lying is ok, not wrong). How is it that everywhere lying is always wrong? Is it a principle we have to accept as worldlings until we hopefully one day can see it clearly as the truth?
  • What a good and a bad destination are.
Thank you.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Bundokji
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Re: Questions about good and bad

Post by Bundokji »

mjaviem wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:26 pm Hi. What's your understanding of the following:
  • How it is possible that good and bad behavior are absolutely good and bad and not only good and bad in regard to the appreciation of the community.(e.g., to this community of people lying is wrong but to that other community lying is ok, not wrong). How is it that everywhere lying is always wrong? Is it a principle we have to accept as worldlings until we hopefully one day can see it clearly as the truth?
  • What a good and a bad destination are.
Thank you.
Categorical imperative determines right and wrong / good and bad as actions to be fitting to be universal laws. It is not the only moral philosophy our there, but as you asked "how is it possible" then i am offering you a possibility.

Good and bad destinations depend on the intention behind the action. Intention links action with its future consequence and vice versa. When you are in a certain situation, either good or bad, you can contemplate the action that led you to the intended outcome. Or, you can reflect on the possible consequences of the action by imagining its future results.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

Consider a tree that leans, inclines, in a particular direction.
Even in a storm the tree will tend to fall in the direction it inclines towards.
In the same way an all round habit of valuing truth will incline the mind in the right direction. Towards the Dhamma.
JohnK
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Re: Questions about good and bad

Post by JohnK »

mjaviem wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:26 pm ...How it is possible that good and bad behavior are absolutely good and bad and not only good and bad in regard to the appreciation of the community.(e.g., to this community of people lying is wrong but to that other community lying is ok, not wrong).
From the Kalama Sutta:
“What do you think, Kālāmas? When greed arises in a person, does it arise for welfare or for harm?”
“For harm, lord.”
“And this greedy person, overcome by greed, his mind possessed by greed, kills living beings, takes what is not given, goes after another person’s wife, tells lies, and induces others to do likewise, all of which is for long-term harm & suffering.”
“Yes, lord.”
So, here the "wrongness" of lying, stealing, etc. is because of the resulting long-term harm and suffering. Presumably it is not only the Kalamas who would see this -- so the wrongness is not culturally-specific. Certainly there are other "rights and wrongs" that are culturally-specific, but these are likely less or not relevant to the dhamma.

Regarding good and bad destinations, I think these are destinations of less or more suffering (vs. ethically good or bad).
:anjali:
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
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DooDoot
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Re: Questions about good and bad

Post by DooDoot »

mjaviem wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:26 pm How is it that everywhere lying is always wrong?
If we ignore unselfish 'white' or 'wholesome lies' (such as lying to Nazis about having Jews in your attic), lying is always wrong because:

1. if a liar is caught by a greater power, the liar will suffer bad consequences

2. lying is due to selfishness and builds selfishness, therefore a liar will be disliked, not-trusted, be a bad partner or friend and will suffer other consequences of being habitually selfish, such as suffering due to loss or death

yesterday i had a cordial debate with a lying multi-millionaire, which included threatening to report him to a government regulator (which generally does not enforce the law). i felt disgusted after the discussion with him, how someone with so much money could be so pathetic & greedy. if the govt regulator does act on my report (if i decide to send it), it will be bad for the liar's reputation plus cost him some money plus could result in a suspension of his capacity to be a director of a company. his potential loss of reputation will be publicized in the mass media

whether big or small, lying is selfish and the buddha taught selfishness is the root of dukkha
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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SarathW
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Re: Questions about good and bad

Post by SarathW »

There is a Sutta to answer this question. Perhaps Rahulovada Sutta.
- if your words, deeds and thought benefit both you and another, it is good.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Alino
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Re: Questions about good and bad

Post by Alino »

The question of good and bad is the question about suffering and freedom from suffering.

As i understand, from Dhamma pount if view:
- all what disturbs and dirt the mind is bad
- all what is calm and purify the mind is good

So all actions that causes disturbances and fabrications- is unwholesome because lead to suffering, where suffering is non-peace of disturbances and a weight of fabrications and complications, all constructed things (bodily or mental) can be felt, they have weight that's why they have dukkha quality.

"Does this action will lead to peace and clarity, or non-peace and non-clarity for myself and others?"
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
form
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Re: Questions about good and bad

Post by form »

Bhikkhu Bodhi taught that wholesome and unwholesome is clear cut. The standard is based on what the Buddha taught, not any other social standard. The sutta said others do it do not mean you should follow.

Repeatedly doing unwholesome acts, will certainly result in confirmed bad kamma.
Inedible
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Re: Questions about good and bad

Post by Inedible »

Good and bad are judgments and they require a perspective to separate them.
JohnK
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Re: Questions about good and bad

Post by JohnK »

Inedible wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:26 am Good and bad are judgments and they require a perspective to separate them.
Are you suggesting that this is a Theravada teaching?
If so, please explain a bit.
Thanks.
:anjali:
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
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cappuccino
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Re: Questions about good and bad

Post by cappuccino »

mjaviem wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:26 pm How is it that everywhere lying is always wrong?
Vipaka Sutta wrote:Telling falsehoods — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from telling falsehoods is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to being falsely accused.
:quote:
befriend
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Re: Questions about good and bad

Post by befriend »

If it has a negative effect on your conciousness it's bad a lot of people gossip but does that even feel good? If something doesn't uplift and brighten your citta It's either neutral or bad. Not wholesome.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
Inedible
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Re: Questions about good and bad

Post by Inedible »

JohnK wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:15 pm
Inedible wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:26 am Good and bad are judgments and they require a perspective to separate them.
Are you suggesting that this is a Theravada teaching?
If so, please explain a bit.
Thanks.
:anjali:
No, I'm not. However, Theravada teachings could provide perspectives on what counts as good or bad. It helps to have a good map.
SarathW
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Re: Questions about good and bad

Post by SarathW »

For Arahants it is not the good and bad. For them it is the compassion.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
JC938
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Re: Questions about good and bad

Post by JC938 »

I believe lying is wrong everywhere.
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