Question about Nanarama's stages of purification

[dpcalder]

I am reading his book on the seven stages of purification and I am overwhelmed with the amount of detail. Not only are there the right jhanas with all their subtleties but there are the subdivisions of the various stages of purification

My question is: is it necessary to have comprehensive intellectual knowledge of this material or are they kinds of fence posts that function as guides? Is it possible to simply use anapanasati to take yourself all the way through and you simply apply mindfulness to whatever arises even if you don't necessary have the theoretical knowledge of how it is articulated in this material?

[SarathW]

I have read The Progress of insight by The Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw a few times.
I agree that it is not an easy text to follow.
In my opinion, it is good to have some understanding of the stages of purification.
There are more simple ways to understand the same such as understanding Noble Eightfold Path.
The advantage of knowing those signposts is that when you practice you can make an evaluation yourself about your progress.
As you suggested practicing Sati Pathana is more useful than trying to fully understand the insight by reading a book.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... gress.html

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

I'd suggest you're better off having "comprehensive intellectual knowledge" of the Suttas than of some subsequent literature. If you have Right View, the rest of the Rightness will follow, and you'll be able to determine what you need to know for yourself.

Further, apply the logic of the Simsapa Sutta to it. Did the Buddha teach it? If not, you may discard it as inessential to the holy life.

Metta,
Paul.

[Ceisiwr]

I am reading his book on the seven stages of purification and I am overwhelmed with the amount of detail. Not only are there the right jhanas with all their subtleties but there are the subdivisions of the various stages of purification

My question is: is it necessary to have comprehensive intellectual knowledge of this material or are they kinds of fence posts that function as guides? Is it possible to simply use anapanasati to take yourself all the way through and you simply apply mindfulness to whatever arises even if you don't necessary have the theoretical knowledge of how it is articulated in this material?

You need to balance both:

Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, “‘One who dwells in the Dhamma, one who dwells in the Dhamma’: thus it is said, lord. To what extent is a bhikkhu one who dwells in the Dhamma?”

“Monk, there is the case where a monk studies the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions. He spends the day in Dhamma-study. He neglects seclusion. He doesn’t commit himself to internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on study, not one who dwells in the Dhamma.

“Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard & studied it and teaches it in full detail to others. He spends the day in Dhamma-description. He neglects seclusion. He doesn’t commit himself to internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on description, not one who dwells in the Dhamma.

“Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard & studied it and recites it in full detail. He spends the day in Dhamma-recitation. He neglects seclusion. He doesn’t commit himself to internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on recitation, not one who dwells in the Dhamma.

“Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma as he has heard & studied it and thinks about it, evaluates it, and examines it with his intellect. He spends the day in Dhamma-thinking. He neglects seclusion. He doesn’t commit himself to internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk who is keen on thinking, not one who dwells in the Dhamma.

“Then there is the case where a monk studies the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions. He doesn’t spend the day in Dhamma-study. He doesn’t neglect seclusion. He commits himself to internal tranquillity of awareness. This is called a monk who dwells in the Dhamma.

“Now, monk, I have taught you the person who is keen on study, the one who is keen on description, the one who is keen on recitation, the one who is keen on thinking, and the one who dwells in the Dhamma. Whatever a teacher should do—seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them—that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monk. Don’t be heedless. Don’t later fall into regret. This is our message to you.”

https://suttacentral.net/an5.73/en/thanissaro

Study and practice in equal measure. The suttas are your go to. Later commentarial material or material from monks and nuns is for further clarification. I recommend studying a sutta connected with emptiness after a really good meditation session. A lot of awakening in the suttas happens after meditation, when hearing a Dhamma talk. Reading it could also be just as good. After a good meditation session the mind will be more clear than with the normal everyday mind.

[SarathW]

I can recall reading some Sutta in Sutta Nipatha in regard to stages of purification.

[Ceisiwr]

I can recall reading some Sutta in Sutta Nipatha in regard to stages of purification.

The Visuddhimagga bases it's stages of purification on the Rathavinīta Sutta: https://suttacentral.net/mn24/en/sujato

[pitakele]

I am reading his book on the seven stages of purification and I am overwhelmed with the amount of detail. Not only are there the right jhanas with all their subtleties but there are the subdivisions of the various stages of purification

My question is: is it necessary to have comprehensive intellectual knowledge of this material or are they kinds of fence posts that function as guides? Is it possible to simply use anapanasati to take yourself all the way through and you simply apply mindfulness to whatever arises even if you don't necessary have the theoretical knowledge of how it is articulated in this material?

'The Seven Stages of Purification & the Insight Knowledges' is an exegesis of the Raṭhavinīta Sutta, Majjhima Nikāya 24. It was compiled from a series of talks in Sinhala in 1977 by the late Ven. Mātara Sri Ñāṇārāma of Meetirigala Nissaraṇa Vanaya, Sri Lanka. Later it was translated into English by one of his pupils, the late Ven. Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇānanda (author of Magic of the Mind, Nibbāna Sermons etc.) I was in robes residing at Meetirigala in the early eighties & made a handwritten copy for myself. Even if one is not interested in the content of the book, Appendix 1, 'The Call to the Meditative Life' is worth reading - very inspirational for those gone forth (or are aspiring to do so).

The Call to the Meditative Life
Ven. Mātara Sri Ñāṇārāma

The intrinsic value of the life of a meditative monk is beyond estimation. There are various marvellous ways of life in this world. But there can hardly be a more marvellous way of life than that of a meditative monk. When you come to think about this, you have reason to congratulate yourself on taking up this way of life. This life of a meditative monk is not only invaluable, but pure and clean. All the other marvellous ways of life in this world are concerned with external things. They have to do with things external — with external mechanics. The life of a meditator, on the other hand, is concerned with the internal mechanics — the mechanics of mind-control. The Buddha was the greatest meditator of all times. The life of the meditative monk originated with him. The birth of a Buddha is an extremely rare phenomenon in the world. Not all who listen to his Dhamma take to this life of meditation; only a few of them take up the meditative life in earnest.

Be happy that you are counted among these fortunate few. Think about the tranquil results following from the practice of the tranquillizing Dhamma which the Buddha has preached. If, on some memorable day in your lives, you conceived the idea of renunciation — of going forth from home to homelessness — it was as the result of a powerful thought force within you. You should always recall that event as one of great significance in your lives. You were able to leave behind your father and mother, your wife and children, your relatives and friends, and your wealth, due to a powerful thought force and a spirit of renunciation aroused in you by listening to the Dhamma. You should not surrender this great will power under any circumstances. You may rest assured that the step you have taken is quite in keeping with the ideal type of going forth described in the discourses. The Sāmaññaphala Sutta (Discourse on the Fruits of Recluseship) of the Dīgha Nikāya portrays the true spirit of renunciation behind the act of going forth in these words:

'Now, a householder or a householder’s son or someone born in some family or other listens to the Dhamma. And on hearing the Dhamma, he conceives faith in the Perfect One. When he is possessed of that faith he reflects: “Full of hindrances is the household life — a path for the dust of passions. The ‘going forth’ is like being in the open air. It is not easy for one living the household life to live the holy life in all its fullness, in all its purity, with the spotless perfection of a polished conch-shell. Let me, then, cut off my hair and beard; let me clothe myself in saffron robes and let me go forth from home to homelessness.” Then, before long, leaving behind his property, be it small or great, leaving behind his circle of relatives, be it small or great, he cuts off his hair and beard, he clothes himself in the saffron robes and goes forth from home to homelessness.
Dīgha Nikāya I,62ff.

With this kind of going forth you have stepped into an environment most congenial to the development of the mind. But, as in any other adventure, here too one has to be on one’s guard against possible dangers. There are four stages in the life of a meditative monk:
(1) the occasion of going forth from the household life;
(2) the preliminary stage in his meditative life when he starts taming his mind in solitude with the help of a meditation subject;
(3) the encountering of dangers in the course of meditation in solitude;
(4) the stage of enjoying the results of his meditation.

To illustrate these stages we may, first of all, compare the going forth of a meditator to the arriving in a clearing of a jungle after passing through a thorny thicket. The household life is, in fact, a thicket full of thorns. But even though one has arrived in a clearing in the jungle, one has yet to face dangers coming from wild beasts and reptiles. So the meditator, too, in the preliminary stage of his practice has to encounter many distracting thoughts which are as dangerous as those wild beasts and reptiles. But with perseverance he succeeds in overcoming these dangers. This is like reaching a valuable tract of land after passing the dangerous area. At this stage the meditator has scored a victory over distracting thoughts. Now the world, together with its gods, looks up to him as a man of great worth and starts paying homage to him worshipfully. But then the meditator, complacent with his initial success, parades through this valuable tract of land and gets bogged down in a morass. For gain, fame and praise are comparable to a morass. Some meditators get bogged down in this morass neck-deep and are unable to step out from it. Others get stuck in it for a while but manage to scramble out. Yet others see its dangers well in time and avoid it altogether.

The life of a meditator, then, is one which is not only precious, but precipitous in that it requires a great deal of caution. I do hope that these observations will give you some food for thought so that you will continue with your meditative life with refreshed minds and renewed vigour.
This meditative life should be steered with great care and caution, avoiding the rugged cliffs of aberration. If that thought force which once proceeded in the right direction lapses into an aberration halfway through, it will lose its momentum. Therefore, you should build up a keener enthusiasm and re-charge that thought force, cutting off all possibilities of lapses.

[BrokenBones]

I am reading his book on the seven stages of purification and I am overwhelmed with the amount of detail. Not only are there the right jhanas with all their subtleties but there are the subdivisions of the various stages of purification

My question is: is it necessary to have comprehensive intellectual knowledge of this material or are they kinds of fence posts that function as guides? Is it possible to simply use anapanasati to take yourself all the way through and you simply apply mindfulness to whatever arises even if you don't necessary have the theoretical knowledge of how it is articulated in this material?

I read it years ago... what a curve ball that was. Imagine you're learning to kick a ball and you read a book on the gravitational effects on a ball flying through the air... doesn't help much does it? And then you do a bit more study and discover that the book was a pile of nonsense to begin with and simply distorted Newton's original work.
If you want to see gravity at work watch the apple or kick the ball. If you want to see Dhamma at work... follow and practice the Buddha's teachings. I'm not saying we shouldn't listen to and be inspired by modern teachers... but always compare what they're saying to the body of suttas (and not one dubious sutta that has been transformed from a molehill into a mountain).

[Srilankaputra]

Just survey the Rupa khandha and nama khanda in your experience. Profound and complex beyond belief, yet if you want to scratch your nose you can.
But, say if you want to learn to pilot an aircraft, theoretical knowledge is probably a great help.

[Pondera]

What has been said in the suttas about jhana is notoriously brief in its nature.

It’s quite clear that the Buddha could have gone into far greater detail, compared to what he gave us.

Therefore, knowing that the Buddha was a great teacher, what little we have SHOULD be enough to go on. And so, all of the greater “precision” regarding finding and mastering the jhana should be worked out by the practitioner.

So, no. You don’t need all that secondary teaching. However, there is nothing wrong with setting goals or reaching mile stones in your practice.

Which is why I suggest you take the following sutta under your wing. It is called the Upanisa Sutta and it details dependent origination and “transcendental” dependent origination (ie. the marks that belong to both the origins and the endings of suffering). Here it is:

"Fabrications have ignorance as their prerequisite, consciousness has fabrications as its prerequisite, name-&-form has consciousness as their prerequisite, the six sense media have name-&-form as their prerequisite, contact has the six sense media as its prerequisite, feeling has contact as its prerequisite, craving has feeling as its prerequisite, clinging has craving as its prerequisite, becoming has clinging as its prerequisite, birth has becoming as its prerequisite, stress & suffering have birth as their prerequisite, conviction has stress & suffering as its prerequisite, joy has conviction as its prerequisite, rapture has joy as its prerequisite, serenity has rapture as its prerequisite, pleasure has serenity as its prerequisite, concentration has pleasure as its prerequisite, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present has concentration as its prerequisite, disenchantment has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present as its prerequisite, dispassion has disenchantment as its prerequisite, release has dispassion as its prerequisite, knowledge of ending has release as its prerequisite."

When your practice has reached a point where you can say, “I have reached x in dependence on y” - and you can say that with reference to the first five factors beginning with “faith” - then you are well on your way. When you’ve mastered all eleven factors of transcendental dependent origination ... what is there to say? All has been done.

Note that the Upanisa Sutta encompasses the formulations of the jhanas and offer guide marks for further development into both jhana and vipasanna - regardless of whether or not you think vipasanna occurs in or out of samatha.

Cheers

[salayatananirodha]

I want to know why ñāṇananda is so critical of visuddhimagga in his works but his meditation teacher ñāṇarāma appears to rely on it

[mikenz66]

I want to know why ñāṇananda is so critical of visuddhimagga in his works but his meditation teacher ñāṇarāma appears to rely on it

Ven Ñāṇananda is critical of some aspects of the Commentaries, but obviously knows them well, and makes use of some frameworks such as insight knowledges. [Bhikkhu Analayo brings a lot of this background out in his lectures on the Nibbana Sermons: https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/resourc ... /lectures/.] It's also obvious from his meditation books that he had a background in a Mahasi-derived approach.


Mike

[Ceisiwr]

I want to know why ñāṇananda is so critical of visuddhimagga in his works but his meditation teacher ñāṇarāma appears to rely on it

Ven Ñāṇananda is critical of some aspects of the Commentaries, but obviously knows them well, and makes use of some frameworks such as insight knowledges. [Bhikkhu Analayo brings a lot of this background out in his lectures on the Nibbana Sermons: https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/resourc ... /lectures/.] It's also obvious from his meditation books that he had a background in a Mahasi-derived approach.


Mike

Yes quite. I think people confuse being critical of the commentaries to rejecting the commentaries in toto, which is a rather extreme position. The commentaries are immensely helpful IMP, even if there are some disagreements.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

I want to know why ñāṇananda is so critical of visuddhimagga in his works but his meditation teacher ñāṇarāma appears to rely on it

I actually wrote to him via an intermediary in order to get a response to a very similar question, but unfortunately his health preventing him from being in a position to reply.

Metta,
Paul.

[robertk]

Yes quite. I think people confuse being critical of the commentaries to rejecting the commentaries in toto, which is a rather extreme position. The commentaries are immensely helpful IMP, even if there are some disagreements

Even Thanissaro and Sujato agree with some points in the Commentaries. They just happen to disagree with any parts that conflict with their personal beliefs.