Question about Nanarama's stages of purification

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Eko Care
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Re: Question about Nanarama's stages of purification

Post by Eko Care »

robertk wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:21 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:44 am
mikenz66 wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:55 am
salayatananirodha wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:45 am I want to know why ñāṇananda is so critical of visuddhimagga in his works but his meditation teacher ñāṇarāma appears to rely on it
  • Ven. Nananada had education in a British environment and Dhamma education in BPS environment.
  • He had ordained in Polgasduva and stayed with the company of famous Western monks for 5 years before coming to ven. Nanarama's place Nissarana vanaya.
  • So obviously he inherited the anti-commentary views such as Nama excluding vinnana, Sambhavesi ..etc
  • All or most of the monks of Nissarana vanaya had opposed those views.
  • Other monks say that ven. Nanarama's soft way of administration was the reason for allowing ven. Nananada to preach those Nibbana sermons at Nissaranavanaya.
salayatananirodha wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:45 am but his meditation teacher ñāṇarāma appears to rely on it
Ven. nanarama had said the below to current abbot ven. Dhammajiva while bhikkhu Nananada was not present.

"If the critisizers of ven. Buddhagosa can understand that they don't possess at least one tenth of the knowledge and wisdom of ven. Buddhaghosa, they will never do that"
plabit
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Re: Question about Nanarama's stages of purification

Post by plabit »

Eko Care wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:22 am
robertk wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:21 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:44 am
mikenz66 wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:55 am
salayatananirodha wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:45 am I want to know why ñāṇananda is so critical of visuddhimagga in his works but his meditation teacher ñāṇarāma appears to rely on it
  • Ven. Nananada had education in a British environment and Dhamma education in BPS environment.
  • He had ordained in Polgasduva and stayed with the company of famous Western monks for 5 years before coming to ven. Nanarama's place Nissarana vanaya.
  • So obviously he inherited the anti-commentary views such as Nama excluding vinnana, Sambhavesi ..etc
  • All or most of the monks of Nissarana vanaya had opposed those views.
  • Other monks say that ven. Nanarama's soft way of administration was the reason for allowing ven. Nananada to preach those Nibbana sermons at Nissaranavanaya.
salayatananirodha wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:45 am but his meditation teacher ñāṇarāma appears to rely on it
Ven. nanarama had said the below to current abbot ven. Dhammajiva while bhikkhu Nananada was not present.

"If the critisizers of ven. Buddhagosa can understand that they don't possess at least one tenth of the knowledge and wisdom of ven. Buddhaghosa, they will never do that"
If Maraghosa possessed any wisdom at all he would not say there is no free will. Nor thinking but no mind. Karma but no doer. And all that foolishness.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Question about Nanarama's stages of purification

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Eko Care,
Eko Care wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:22 am So obviously he inherited the anti-commentary views such as Nama excluding vinnana
Oh.

Are you saying SN 12.2 is anti-commentary view?
SN 12.2 wrote:And what is name-&-form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention: This is called name.
Is SN 12.67 anti-commentary view for regarding nama-rupa and vinnana as akin to two different sheaves of reeds rather than just one?
SN 12.67 wrote:It is as if two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one another. In the same way, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.
Perhaps one inherits the view of vinnana being excluded from nama, if one inherits the legacy of the Buddhadhamma, rather than inheriting the products of sectarianism? :shrug:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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DooDoot
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Re: Question about Nanarama's stages of purification

Post by DooDoot »

plabit wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:15 am thinking but no mind. Karma but no doer. And all that foolishness.
Sounds like Nagarjuna.
Eko Care wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:22 am
  • So obviously he inherited the anti-commentary views such as Nama excluding vinnana, Sambhavesi ..etc
What? :shrug: Vinnana + Sambhavesi = nama?? :shrug:
“Mendicants, there are these four nutriments. They maintain sentient beings that have been born and help those (beings) that are about to be born.

“Cattārome, bhikkhave, āhārā bhūtānaṁ vā sattānaṁ ṭhitiyā, sambhavesīnaṁ vā anuggahāya.

What four?

Katame cattāro?

Solid food, whether coarse or fine; contact is the second, mental intention the third, and consciousness the fourth.

Kabaḷīkāro āhāro oḷāriko vā sukhumo vā, phasso dutiyo, manosañcetanā tatiyā, viññāṇaṁ catutthaṁ.

What is the source, origin, birthplace, and inception of these four nutriments?

Ime ca, bhikkhave, cattāro āhārā kiṁnidānā kiṁsamudayā kiṁjātikā kiṁpabhavā?

Craving.

Ime cattāro āhārā taṇhānidānā taṇhāsamudayā taṇhājātikā taṇhāpabhavā.

MN 38
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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salayatananirodha
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Re: Question about Nanarama's stages of purification

Post by salayatananirodha »

Eko Care wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:22 am
  • So obviously he inherited the anti-commentary views such as Nama excluding vinnana, Sambhavesi ..etc
retrofuturist wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:34 am Greetings Eko Care,
Eko Care wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:22 am So obviously he inherited the anti-commentary views such as Nama excluding vinnana
Oh.

Are you saying SN 12.2 is anti-commentary view?
SN 12.2 wrote:And what is name-&-form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention: This is called name.
Is SN 12.67 anti-commentary view for regarding nama-rupa and vinnana as akin to two different sheaves of reeds rather than just one?
SN 12.67 wrote:It is as if two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one another. In the same way, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.
...
actually, eko care will you please answer this?
I host a sutta discussion via Zoom Sundays at 11AM Chicago time — message me if you are interested
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robertk
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Re: Question about Nanarama's stages of purification

Post by robertk »

salayatananirodha wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:16 am
Eko Care wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:22 am
  • So obviously he inherited the anti-commentary views such as Nama excluding vinnana, Sambhavesi ..etc
retrofuturist wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:34 am Greetings Eko Care,
Eko Care wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:22 am So obviously he inherited the anti-commentary views such as Nama excluding vinnana
Oh.

Are you saying SN 12.2 is anti-commentary view?
SN 12.2 wrote:And what is name-&-form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention: This is called name.
Is SN 12.67 anti-commentary view for regarding nama-rupa and vinnana as akin to two different sheaves of reeds rather than just one?
SN 12.67 wrote:It is as if two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one another. In the same way, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.
...
actually, eko care will you please answer this?
I don't know what Nanananda thought but the Commentaries explain that in the context of Paticcasamupada only three of the non-material aggregates are meant: XVII
1
87. 1. By analysis of mind and matter: here “mind” (náma—mentality) is the
three aggregates, that is, feeling, perception, and formations,
because of their
bending (namana) on to the object. “Matter” (rúpa—materiality) is the four great
primary elements and the materiality derived [by clinging] from the four great
primaries. Their analysis is given in the Description of the Aggregates (XIV.34f.,
In other contexts nama usually refers to the 4 immaterial aggregates (includes vinnana).
Example: XVIII 24
[
NO BEING APART FROM MENTALITY-MATERIALITY]
24. He defines the four immaterial aggregates that have thus become evident
through contact, etc., as “mentality.” And he defines their objects, namely, the
four primaries and the materiality derived from the four primaries, as
“materiality.” So, as one who opens a box with a knife, as one who splits a twin
palmyra bulb in two, he defines all states of the three planes,9 the eighteen
elements, twelve bases, five aggregates, in the double way as “mentalitymateriality,”
and he concludes that over and above mere mentality-materiality
there is nothing else that is a being or a person or a deity or a Brahmá.
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