Restlessness fetter

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asahi
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Restlessness fetter

Post by asahi »

Sutta said : And what are the five higher fetters? Lust for form, lust for the formless, conceit, restlessness, and ignorance. These are the five higher fetters.

Restlessness as a hindrance is overcome by being diligent and develop tranquility .
But how is the restlessness as a fetter get eliminated ? What about sloth and torpor and remorse fetters get eliminated ?
2600htz
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Re: Restlessness fetter

Post by 2600htz »

Hi:

The short answer: the fetter of restlessness gets eliminated with the fruition of arahantship. Thats how you lose the last 5 fetters. It cant be eliminated just by effort or developing mental factors (unless this leads indirectly to that experience).

Sloth and torpor is only used in the context of hindrances, not fetters.

Hindrances are "things that dont allow you to enter a jhana".
Fetters are "things that dont allow you to attain awakening'.

Regards.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Restlessness fetter

Post by Ceisiwr »

asahi wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:50 am Sutta said : And what are the five higher fetters? Lust for form, lust for the formless, conceit, restlessness, and ignorance. These are the five higher fetters.

Restlessness as a hindrance is overcome by being diligent and develop tranquility .
But how is the restlessness as a fetter get eliminated ? What about sloth and torpor and remorse fetters get eliminated ?
Can you quote the sutta? Thanks.
“When serenity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Lust is abandoned.”

“When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Wisdom is developed. And when wisdom is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned."


AN 2.31
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Sam Vara
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Re: Restlessness fetter

Post by Sam Vara »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:08 pm
asahi wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:50 am Sutta said : And what are the five higher fetters? Lust for form, lust for the formless, conceit, restlessness, and ignorance. These are the five higher fetters.

Restlessness as a hindrance is overcome by being diligent and develop tranquility .
But how is the restlessness as a fetter get eliminated ? What about sloth and torpor and remorse fetters get eliminated ?
Can you quote the sutta? Thanks.
If you mean the bit about the 5 higher fetters, that's in AN 10.13 .
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DooDoot
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Re: Restlessness fetter

Post by DooDoot »

asahi wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:50 am Sutta said : And what are the five higher fetters? Lust for form, lust for the formless, conceit, restlessness, and ignorance. These are the five higher fetters.

Restlessness as a hindrance is overcome by being diligent and develop tranquility .
But how is the restlessness as a fetter get eliminated ? What about sloth and torpor and remorse fetters get eliminated ?
The restlessness fetter is not the same as the restlessness-&-remorse hindrance.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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asahi
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Re: Restlessness fetter

Post by asahi »

2600htz wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:58 pm the fetter of restlessness gets eliminated with the fruition of arahantship. Thats how you lose the last 5 fetters. It cant be eliminated just by effort or developing mental factors (unless this leads indirectly to that experience).
This is strange , arent in the first place we suppose to eliminate the fetters and then attain arahant ?


Bhante Dhammanando (or any expert) , could you help out on this ?
2600htz
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Re: Restlessness fetter

Post by 2600htz »

Hi:

That would make no sense, i mean if you already have no fetters that bound you to this world, what would you gain with arahantship.

Regards.
asahi
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Re: Restlessness fetter

Post by asahi »

Dhammanando wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:47 am ......
2600htz wrote :
the fetter of restlessness gets eliminated with the fruition of arahantship. Thats how you lose the last 5 fetters. It cant be eliminated just by effort or developing mental factors (unless this leads indirectly to that experience).
Bhante , could you help out on this ?
How is fetter of restlessness get abandon ?
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Dhammanando
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Re: Restlessness fetter

Post by Dhammanando »

asahi wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:49 am Bhante , could you help out on this ?
How is fetter of restlessness get abandon ?
By the attainment of arahatta.

This is how it's described in the commentary to the Satipatthānasutta:
Agitation and Worry

Wrong reflection on mental agitation brings about flurry and worry. Mental agitation is inner turbulence. Actually it is flurry and worry, only. Intense wrong reflection on that mental agitation produces flurry and worry. Therefore the Blessed One said that wrong reflection on mental agitation when plentifully done produces fresh flurry and worry and increases and expands flurry and worry already in existence.

The casting out of agitation and worry occurs through right reflection on mental tranquillity called concentration and an abundance of right reflection on mental tranquillity, says the Blessed One, is a condition for the keeping out of fresh mental agitation and worry and the dispelling of agitation and worry already in the mind.

Six things are conducive to the casting out of agitation and worry: Knowledge; questioning; understanding of Vinaya rules; association with those more experienced and older than oneself in the practice of things like virtue; sympathetic and helpful companionship and stimulating talk that helps the rejection of mental agitation and worry.

In explanation it is said as follows:

Agitation and worry disappear in him who learns in the spirit and in the letter one, two, three, four or five collections of Scripture. This is how one gets over agitation and worry by knowledge.

Questioning means: inquiring much about what is befitting and not, according to the practice of the Sangha. In him who does this, too, agitation and worry disappear.

Then these twin evils disappear in him who has got the mastery of the Vinaya due to practical application of and conversance with the nature of the Rule of the Sangha. This is the understanding of the disciplinary rules.

Association with those more experienced and so forth; the going to the presence of and the conversing with virtuous elders in the Sangha. By such visits mental agitation and worry disappear in one.

Sympathetic and helpful companionship: association with experts of the Vinaya rules like the Elder Upali, the first of the great masters of the Vinaya in the Sangha. In such company mental agitation and worry disappear.

Stimulating talk in this connection refers particularly to matters of disciplinary practice by which one comes to know what is befitting and what is not. By this agitation and worry vanish in one.

Therefore, is it said that six things lead to the rejection of agitation and worry, but the agitation (uddhacca) cast out by these things finally ceases to arise in the future through the attainment of the path of arahantship, and the worry (kukkucca) cast out by these things finally ceases to arise in the future through the attainment of the path of the non-returner.

In their own state or actually as they are individually, mental agitation and worry are two different things. Still, as worry in the form of repentance or remorse for ill done and good undone is similar to agitation which is characterized by distraction and disquiet of mind, mental agitation is called flurry and worry.

Mental agitation does not overtake the intelligent well-read man who probes into things by way of what is written in books and by way of the significance and import of the things themselves. Therefore, it is said that by way of knowledge not merely of the Vinaya rules, but by way of knowledge of the ninefold Buddha-word, beginning with the Discourses, according to the principles of the method already stated, and by the application of the proper remedies mentioned by way of questioning and so forth, remorse and regret for ill done and good undone do not take place.

By associating with elders who are older than oneself in the practice of the precepts of virtue and similar good things, who are restrained, aged, matured seniors, there is brought to one a measure of restraint, matured bearing, dignity and calm, and mental agitation and worry are cast out.

Good companionship refers to association with those versed in the Vinaya who are able to dispel worry as regards any doubt concerning what is proper and improper practice.
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
asahi
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Re: Restlessness fetter

Post by asahi »

Dhammanando wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:34 am
Therefore, is it said that six things lead to the rejection of agitation and worry, but the agitation (uddhacca) cast out by these things finally ceases to arise in the future through the attainment of the path of arahantship, and the worry (kukkucca) cast out by these things finally ceases to arise in the future through the attainment of the path of the non-returner.

Bhante ,

Iyo should the restlessness as hindrance has same meaning or totally different from fetter ? Does above attaintment of the path of arahantship refers to state of arahant ?
Worry ceases to arise with attaintment of anagami path , yet is there sutta stated worry as fetter ?
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Dhammanando
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Re: Restlessness fetter

Post by Dhammanando »

asahi wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:15 am Iyo should the restlessness as hindrance has same meaning or totally different from fetter ?
The fetter of restlessness and the hindrance of restlessness are one and the same mental factor.

However, with the abandoning of worry at non-returning, though restlessness remains as a fetter it's no longer reckoned a hindrance. That is, being divorced from worry it's now too weak to do what a hindrance does: obstruct concentration and weaken wisdom.
asahi wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:15 am Does above attaintment of the path of arahantship refers to state of arahant ?
The attainment of the path means that the attainment of the fruit will become inevitable, either in the very next moment (according to the classical Theravada) or at least at some point in the present life (according to an influential heterodox opinion). Thereafter one will enjoy the state of an arahant.
asahi wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:15 am Worry ceases to arise with attaintment of anagami path , yet is there sutta stated worry as fetter ?
Worry is classed as an unwholesome mental factor but not as a fetter. Its abandoning by the non-returner is an Abhidhamma teaching. Worry can't arise in a non-returner because it arises only in a hate-rooted consciousness and non-returners no longer experience these. Also, it arises only in the aftermath of committing a sense-sphere moral transgression, but this too is not possible for a non-returner, since he has no hate and his remaining attachment is only for rūpa and arūpa existence.
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
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