Will the people who call the arahants just by name, attain Nibbana?

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Eko Care
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Will the people who call the arahants just by name, attain Nibbana?

Post by Eko Care »

Will a person who call venerable Sariputta as Sariputta attain any fruit?
Will a person who call venerable Moggallana as Moggallana attain any fruit?

Will they born in lower realms according to the Culla kamma vibhanga Sutta?
Do you think you know better than the ancient Sangha ?
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Re: Will the people who call the arahants just by name, attain Nibbana?

Post by Inedible »

Respect doesn't require using titles. You know how you feel when you talk about the Arhats. The Mahayana types might be in trouble, though. The ones who think they are better than the Arhats even before they accomplish anything just for having joined.
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Re: Will the people who call the arahants just by name, attain Nibbana?

Post by DooDoot »

Eko Care wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:57 am Will a person who call venerable Sariputta as Sariputta attain any fruit?
Will a person who call venerable Moggallana as Moggallana attain any fruit?
Hi

It is arguable the above may be the sakkaya-ditthi that is a fetter to stream-entry, and also sīlabbata-parāmāsa, which is another fetter to stream-entry. For example, in DN 16, when the Buddha passed away, the monks with lust called the Buddha "The Blessed One", while the Noble Ones called the Buddha "conditioned phenomena", as follows:
DN 16 wrote:17. Then, when the Blessed One had passed away, some bhikkhus, not yet freed from passion, lifted up their arms and wept; and some, flinging themselves on the ground, rolled from side to side and wept, lamenting: "Too soon has the Blessed One come to his Parinibbana! Too soon has the Happy One come to his Parinibbana! Too soon has the Eye of the World vanished from sight!"

But the bhikkhus who were freed from passion, mindful and clearly comprehending, reflected in this way: "Impermanent are all compounded things. How could this be otherwise?"

DN 16
o


:alien:
Eko Care wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:57 am Will they born in lower realms according to the Culla kamma vibhanga Sutta?
MN 135 does not use the term "born" ("jato") in hell. MN 135 says a person is "upapajjati" into hell. The root of upapajjati is "pad" and not the "jan" root found in "jato". Also, MN 135, spoken to a Brahmin student rather than to Noble Buddhists, does not appear to say what you are suggesting. However, the suttas do say the below about those many "comparatively born" ("paccajayanti") into hell compared to the few:
“… the sentient beings who die as humans and are reborn as humans are few, while those who die as humans and are reborn in hell are many …”

“Evameva kho, bhikkhave, appakā te sattā ye manussā cutā manussesu paccājāyanti; atha kho eteva bahutarā sattā ye manussā cutā niraye paccājāyanti …pe….

https://suttacentral.net/sn56.102/en/sujato

Why is that?
Taṁ kissa hetu?

It’s because they haven’t seen the four noble truths :| .
Adiṭṭhattā, bhikkhave, catunnaṁ ariyasaccānaṁ.

What four?
Katamesaṁ catunnaṁ?

The noble truths of suffering, the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering.

Dukkhassa ariyasaccassa, dukkhasamudayassa ariyasaccassa, dukkhanirodhassa ariyasaccassa, dukkhanirodhagāminiyā paṭipadāya ariyasaccassa.

https://suttacentral.net/sn56.131/en/sujato
MN 135 merely says:
Here, student, some man or woman is obstinate and arrogant; he does not pay homage to one who should receive homage, does not rise up for one in whose presence he should rise up, does not offer a seat to one who deserves a seat, does not make way for one for whom he should make way, and does not honour, respect, revere, and venerate one who should be honoured, respected, revered, and venerated. Because of performing and undertaking such action…he reappears in a state of deprivation…But if instead he comes back to the human state, then wherever he is reborn he is low-born. This is the way, student, that leads to low birth, namely, one is obstinate and arrogant…and does not honour, respect, revere, and venerate one who should be honoured, respected, revered, and venerated.
If Venerable Sariputta is called merely "Sariputta" with a heart of metta, there is no downfall. Plus Sariputta passed away 2600 years ago therefore we can't rise up and offer a seat for that now impermanent & vanished Venerable One. Or do you believe Sariputta remains abiding today for countless eons in Távatimsá with Buddhaghosa?? :smile:
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Re: Will the people who call the arahants just by name, attain Nibbana?

Post by Eko Care »

Inedible wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:12 am Respect doesn't require using titles.
Have you ever seen addressing like that (to an arahant by a buddhist) in any Sutta or commentary?
Do you think you know better than the ancient Sangha ?
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Re: Will the people who call the arahants just by name, attain Nibbana?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

There does seem to be some correlation in the suttas between the attitude of the audience members and their attainment of the Path. There is a tradition of asking for forgiveness in case one has spoken disrespectfully to any Noble Ones in the past, as insulting a Noble One is said to be obstructive kamma.

Merely not knowing the correct form of address is not showing disrespect.

In the Ghaṭikāra Sutta, the Bodhisatta Jotipāla referred to the Buddha Kassapa as a ”Bald-headed recluse.” Due to this disrespect, when he was striving for Enlightenment he had to practise six years of severe austerities. Not all Bodhisatta have to do this.
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Re: Will the people who call the arahants just by name, attain Nibbana?

Post by sphairos »

Eko Care wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:57 am Will a person who call venerable Sariputta as Sariputta attain any fruit?
Will a person who call venerable Moggallana as Moggallana attain any fruit?

Will they born in lower realms according to the Culla kamma vibhanga Sutta?
I believe they all go to hell.
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How true are your ways?
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Re: Will the people who call the arahants just by name, attain Nibbana?

Post by Eko Care »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:06 pm Merely not knowing the correct form of address is not showing disrespect.
Nevertheless, can it be considered as showing respect?
Is such a one eligible for higher goals yet?
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Re: Will the people who call the arahants just by name, attain Nibbana?

Post by Inedible »

Eko Care wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:33 pm Have you ever seen addressing like that (to an arahant by a buddhist) in any Sutta or commentary?
Of course not. Now you are talking about speaking on record. Even if someone skipped a title it would have been added in again later. Actually I almost remember reading a reference to someone addressing The Buddha informally and being corrected for it.
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Re: Will the people who call the arahants just by name, attain Nibbana?

Post by Dhammanando »

Inedible wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:56 am Actually I almost remember reading a reference to someone addressing The Buddha informally and being corrected for it.
Yes, it was the five ascetics just before the teaching of the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta.
The Buddha continued wandering toward the deer park at Isipatana near Benares. When he eventually arrived, he approached to the group of five monks.

Seeing him coming, the group of five made an agreement with one another: “Here comes the ascetic Gotama, who has has given up his striving and returned to a life of abundance. We shouldn’t bow down to him, stand up for him, or receive his bowl and robe, but we should prepare a seat. If he wishes, he may sit down.” But as the Buddha approached, the group of five monks was unable to keep their agreement. One went to meet him to receive his bowl and robe, another prepared a seat, another set out water for washing the feet, yet another set out a foot-stool, and the last one put out a foot-scraper. The Buddha sat down on the prepared seat and washed his feet. But they still addressed him by name and as “friend”.

The Buddha said to the group of five monks, “Monks, don’t address the Buddha by name or as ʻfriend’.
Listen, I’m perfected and fully awakened. I have discovered the deathless. I will instruct you and teach you the Truth. When you practice as instructed, in this very life you will soon realize with your own insight the supreme goal of the spiritual life for which people from good families rightly go forth from home to homelessness.”

They replied, “Friend Gotama, by practicing extreme austerities you didn’t gain any superhuman quality, any distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of noble ones. Since you have given up your striving and returned to a life of abundance, how could you now have achieved any of this?”

The Buddha said, “I haven’t given up striving and returned to a life of abundance,” and he repeated what he had said before.

A second time the group of five monks repeated their question and a second time the Buddha repeated his reply. A third time they repeated their question,

and the Buddha then said, “Do you remember me ever making such a statement?”

“No, Sir.”

“Then listen. I’m perfected and fully awakened. I have discovered the deathless. I will instruct you and teach you the Truth. When you practice as instructed, in this very life you will soon realize with your own insight the supreme goal of the spiritual life for which people from good families rightly go forth from home to homelessness.”

The Buddha was able to persuade the group of five monks. They then listened to the Buddha, paid careful attention, and applied their minds to understand.

And the Buddha addressed them:

“There are these two opposites that should not be pursued by one who has gone forth...

https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-kd1/en/brahmali
And the fact that Ven. Aññākondañña attains stream-entry at the end of the discourse seems to answer the OP's question as to whether a failure to show sufficient reverence might impede one's attainment of the fruit. The answer, as Ven. Pesala noted, is not if it's an unwitting and unintentional faux pas.
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
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Re: Will the people who call the arahants just by name, attain Nibbana?

Post by DooDoot »

Dhammanando wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:14 am And the fact that Ven. Aññākondañña attains stream-entry at the end of the discourse seems to answer the OP's question as to whether a failure to show sufficient reverence might impede one's attainment of the fruit.
But i recall only 1 from 5 ascetics attained stream-entry, which appears to show addressing the Buddha correctly did not in itself result in stream-entry. Correct me if i am wrong but i recall the stream-entry occurred due to realising the craving, attachment & becoming that was subject to arising is all subject to cessation.
Inedible wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:56 am Actually I almost remember reading a reference to someone addressing The Buddha informally and being corrected for it.
It was also in MN 140, where a bhikkhu who addressed the Buddha as "friend" appeared to gain realisation from the Buddha's teaching. Then, after the same bhikkhu learned of the Buddha's identity, it appears the bhikkhu became over-excited and was killed by a stray cow.
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Re: Will the people who call the arahants just by name, attain Nibbana?

Post by Dhammanando »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:19 amBut i recall only 1 from 5 ascetics attained stream-entry, which appears to show addressing the Buddha correctly did not result in stream-entry.
I didn't say that addressing the Buddha as 'friend' was the cause for stream-entry, only that it needn't be an impediment to attaining it, even though it's not a respectful way to address a Buddha.
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
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Re: Will the people who call the arahants just by name, attain Nibbana?

Post by DooDoot »

Dhammanando wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:29 am I didn't say that addressing the Buddha as 'friend' was the cause for stream-entry, only that it needn't be an impediment to attaining it, even though it's not a respectful way to address a Buddha.
Venerable Dhammanando. Forgive me for my vagueness; that I would be so muddle-headed to misconstrue your Venerable post. :(
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Re: Will the people who call the arahants just by name, attain Nibbana?

Post by Dhammanando »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:45 am Venerable Dhammanando. Forgive me for my vagueness; that I would be so muddle-headed to misconstrue your Venerable post. :(
No problem.
:lol:
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
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Re: Will the people who call the arahants just by name, attain Nibbana?

Post by DooDoot »

Dhammanando wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:00 am No problem.
Can a Venerable be reborn in hell for not respectfully addressing one such as myself as "friend" or, at the very least, "householder"? :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Will the people who call the arahants just by name, attain Nibbana?

Post by Dhammanando »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:02 am Can a Venerable be reborn in hell for not respectfully addressing one such as myself as "friend" or, at the very least, "householder"? :shrug:
I think the same considerations would apply in all cases where one person addresses another in a manner that doesn't conform to the conventional norms of respectful greeting: if it's deliberately unfriendly or disrespectful then it's unskilful. If it's not due to any "inner fault" (dosantara) but to something else then it's blameless, as in the case of Pilindavaccha's addressing his fellow monks as vasalas.
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
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