Kamma

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
form
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Re: Kamma

Post by form »

Link to this question will be is form (first of the 5 aggregates) link to molecules, atoms and smaller units? Can there be some kind of latent energy, charge and vibrations stored on them and transfer around?
justindesilva
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Re: Kamma

Post by justindesilva »

simsapa wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:11 pm
Bhava sutta explains that kamma is the field
What kind of field?
Hence I feel that kamma is an environment
What kind?
The environment to my understanding is "bhava" existentional environment created by ones kusal and akusal.
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Re: Kamma

Post by sphairos »

simsapa wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:57 pm
But kamma-vipāka works in arūpa reality, "non-physical", pure mind
I'm looking for evidence of this idea in the Tipitaka.
The beings get born in the arūpa reality and die there according to the kamma-vipāka. It's in the Brahmajāla-sutta and in many other suttas.
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mjaviem
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Re: Kamma

Post by mjaviem »

form wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:58 pm Link to this question will be is form (first of the 5 aggregates) link to molecules, atoms and smaller units? ...
We should regard forms phenomena as inconstant, changeable and alterable according to SN25.2.. I think molecules, atoms and smaller units are the scientists' way of explaining the world.

By linking those two, would you keep convinced about the impermanence of the form phenomena? What if advances in science explain there are inalterable particles in the world? Would you be still convinced? Have you already accepted impermanence of form as truth?
form wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:58 pm ... Can there be some kind of latent energy, charge and vibrations stored on them and transfer around?
I think you don't need stored vibrations to explain your actions driven by your intentions. If what you are looking for is an explanation of the consequences you should read AN4.77 as pointed out by Bundokji above.
“There are these four inconceivables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four?
.…
“The [precise working out of the] results of kamma.…
And trust this is meant for our own good and progress along the path.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
form
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Re: Kamma

Post by form »

mjaviem wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:14 pm
form wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:58 pm Link to this question will be is form (first of the 5 aggregates) link to molecules, atoms and smaller units? ...
We should regard forms phenomena as inconstant, changeable and alterable according to SN25.2.. I think molecules, atoms and smaller units are the scientists' way of explaining the world.

By linking those two, would you keep convinced about the impermanence of the form phenomena? What if advances in science explain there are inalterable particles in the world? Would you be still convinced? Have you already accepted impermanence of form as truth?
form wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:58 pm ... Can there be some kind of latent energy, charge and vibrations stored on them and transfer around?
I think you don't need stored vibrations to explain your actions driven by your intentions. If what you are looking for is an explanation of the consequences you should read AN4.77 as pointed out by Bundokji above.
“There are these four inconceivables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four?
.…
“The [precise working out of the] results of kamma.…
And trust this is meant for our own good and progress along the path.
I understand what u are pointing out is based on the suttas and your intention about the point of making progress is good.

This is my opinion. Unfortunately the Buddha lived in a time 2500 years before us. So his explanation of the Dhamma is based on the scientific knowledge of that era.

When a modern person has some insights it may come with some modern scientific explanations. For example, Thich Nhat Hanh wrote about a French Scientist that got insight of impermanence when he realised energy cannot be destroyed.

For example, in the note in AN book one on mind, Bhikkhu Bodhi commented that a luminous mind could be something close to subconscious or unconscious.
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mjaviem
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Re: Kamma

Post by mjaviem »

form wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:49 pm ...his explanation of the Dhamma is based on the scientific knowledge of that era.

When a modern person has some insights it may come with some modern scientific explanations. For example, Thich Nhat Hanh wrote about a French Scientist that got insight of impermanence when he realised energy cannot be destroyed.

For example, in the note in AN book one on mind, Bhikkhu Bodhi commented that a luminous mind could be something close to subconscious or unconscious.
I think his explanations of the Dhamma are based on his own direct observations and understanding of phenomena but I agree with you that he only used knowledge of the time and other resources as a mean of communicating the truth. I think that when he talks about four elements he is teaching the truth from our experience point of view and not teaching an independent objective reality. I don't know if a buddha in our time would use subatomic particles and packets of energy to explain Dhamma but if so, I think it would be as a mean to explain our experience as suffering beings (which I think are synonyms by the way). Whether four elements or subatomic particles are proved to be true or not by scientists is not relevant to the Dhamma.

And I think you shouldn't regard living in our time as fortunate nor living 2500 years ago as unfortunate. The only misfortune is to keep clinging to existence :P
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justindesilva
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Re: Kamma

Post by justindesilva »

mjaviem wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:21 pm
form wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:49 pm ...his explanation of the Dhamma is based on the scientific knowledge of that era.

When a modern person has some insights it may come with some modern scientific explanations. For example, Thich Nhat Hanh wrote about a French Scientist that got insight of impermanence when he realised energy cannot be destroyed.

For example, in the note in AN book one on mind, Bhikkhu Bodhi commented that a luminous mind could be something close to subconscious or unconscious.
I think his explanations of the Dhamma are based on his own direct observations and understanding of phenomena but I agree with you that he only used knowledge of the time and other resources as a mean of communicating the truth. I think that when he talks about four elements he is teaching the truth from our experience point of view and not teaching an independent objective reality. I don't know if a buddha in our time would use subatomic particles and packets of energy to explain Dhamma but if so, I think it would be as a mean to explain our experience as suffering beings (which I think are synonyms by the way). Whether four elements or subatomic particles are proved to be true or not by scientists is not relevant to the Dhamma.

And I think you shouldn't regard living in our time as fortunate nor living 2500 years ago as unfortunate. The only misfortune is to keep clinging to existence :P
Reading agganna sutta leads one to compare the Big bang theory with evolution of the earth and further it explains the appearance of a luminous being.This being with tanha has to undergo male female difference of humans with foods becoming rare and thick skinned.
I do not think that these are easily explainable in modern science.
Secondly the first sutta MN 1 , mula paryaya sutta explains earth elements as shuddastaka, apo, tejo, vayo, patavi, varna, gandha, rasa, oja along with its combination of consciousness, while nama rupa is a further explained development. Apo tejo vayo patavi arises as with mutually interchangeable properties . These explained as properties of elements , dhatu, is a proper scientific explanation, reachable in mind as panna. Meditation explained as sathara sathipattana and its effects are still under experiments with behaviour as alpha and gamma rays. All scintific basis of what the budda said can be understood with meditation and laid down with modern science.
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Re: Kamma

Post by simsapa »

The beings get born in the arūpa reality and die there according to the kamma-vipāka. It's in the Brahmajāla-sutta and in many other suttas.
So then it follows that kamma-vipāka cannot be essentially a physical force. I follow now.
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Re: Kamma

Post by mjaviem »

justindesilva wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:09 pm ...
Secondly the first sutta MN 1 , mula paryaya sutta explains earth elements as shuddastaka, apo, tejo, vayo, patavi, varna, gandha, rasa, oja along with its combination of consciousness, while nama rupa is a further explained development. Apo tejo vayo patavi arises as with mutually interchangeable properties . These explained as properties of elements , dhatu, is a proper scientific explanation, reachable in mind as panna. Meditation explained as sathara sathipattana and its effects are still under experiments with behaviour as alpha and gamma rays. All scintific basis of what the budda said can be understood with meditation and laid down with modern science.
I don't know pali but to me, MN1 is not about the physical world but about our experience of the world. It is not describing the world, it only talks about perceiving and conceiving, without any concern about explaining an independent world à la science. If science finds analogous results or not is not relevant.

In MN1, he uses the concept of the elements (popular at the time) to teach that ordinary people haven't understood that the elements must not be taken as self. He doesn't declare the reality of the four elements nor rejects it, he is talking only about the peception people have of them. Then he takes the concept of beings to teach the same truth. He takes the concept of gods, lord of creation and brahma for the same reason. In this Sutta he is not teaching about gods and the lord of creation and brahma. He is teaching that whoever takes them to be self is someone who hasn't fully understood. He continues on with gods of Streaming Radiance, Refulgent Glory, Great Fruit, the Overlord, but I don't read that the Buddha is teaching about their reality, only the perception people have of them and they wrongly conceiving a self from them. Base of infinite space, base of infinite consciousness, base of nothingness, base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, etc. all is about the perceptions people reach of these. It's not relevant if there is an independent reality for them or not. And I think if science reaches to conclusions similar to the teachings the only relevancy could be to use this new belief people acquire to teach the Dhamma accordingly.

PS.: Sorry, I need to read DN27 to make a reply for it.
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form
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Re: Kamma

Post by form »

justindesilva wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:09 pm
mjaviem wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:21 pm
form wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:49 pm ...his explanation of the Dhamma is based on the scientific knowledge of that era.

When a modern person has some insights it may come with some modern scientific explanations. For example, Thich Nhat Hanh wrote about a French Scientist that got insight of impermanence when he realised energy cannot be destroyed.

For example, in the note in AN book one on mind, Bhikkhu Bodhi commented that a luminous mind could be something close to subconscious or unconscious.
I think his explanations of the Dhamma are based on his own direct observations and understanding of phenomena but I agree with you that he only used knowledge of the time and other resources as a mean of communicating the truth. I think that when he talks about four elements he is teaching the truth from our experience point of view and not teaching an independent objective reality. I don't know if a buddha in our time would use subatomic particles and packets of energy to explain Dhamma but if so, I think it would be as a mean to explain our experience as suffering beings (which I think are synonyms by the way). Whether four elements or subatomic particles are proved to be true or not by scientists is not relevant to the Dhamma.

And I think you shouldn't regard living in our time as fortunate nor living 2500 years ago as unfortunate. The only misfortune is to keep clinging to existence :P
Reading agganna sutta leads one to compare the Big bang theory with evolution of the earth and further it explains the appearance of a luminous being.This being with tanha has to undergo male female difference of humans with foods becoming rare and thick skinned.
I do not think that these are easily explainable in modern science.
Secondly the first sutta MN 1 , mula paryaya sutta explains earth elements as shuddastaka, apo, tejo, vayo, patavi, varna, gandha, rasa, oja along with its combination of consciousness, while nama rupa is a further explained development. Apo tejo vayo patavi arises as with mutually interchangeable properties . These explained as properties of elements , dhatu, is a proper scientific explanation, reachable in mind as panna. Meditation explained as sathara sathipattana and its effects are still under experiments with behaviour as alpha and gamma rays. All scintific basis of what the budda said can be understood with meditation and laid down with modern science.
The creation sutta is very scientific. I see physics and evolution in it. There are areas that modern science still do not understand like energies, time and its dimensions.

MN1 will be a middle way. Either extremes in view will be too much.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Kamma

Post by Ceisiwr »

Apparently lots of scientific discoveries were talked about in the Qur’an too. Go figure ;)
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
form
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Re: Kamma

Post by form »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:21 am Apparently lots of scientific discoveries were talked about in the Qur’an too. Go figure ;)
Buddhism by far is the most scientific. If I am not wrong, that is a comment from Albert Einstein.

Even the theme "attached to aggregates is suffering" is very scientific because it required one to explore it.
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mjaviem
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Re: Kamma

Post by mjaviem »

I think that even if science after some discoveries explains that we are trapped in a time & space illusion and that escaping the illusion of death is theoretically possible and that we could be beyond even the subtlest forms of suffering of our existence, beyond time and space, it would be inspiring but irrelevant.

The trustworthy source for faith to find liberation should be the Suttas. If we put our trust in science first it can quickly change its message and leave us confused. I believe the Buddha's teachings are consistent and the taught Dhamma timeless. I think the teachings are king among any explanations of our existence. If the concern is the basics of galaxies dynamics or quantum behaviors, then I would trust science first but to find liberating truths is to follow the Buddhas advice of practice and to not question the workings of kamma as in this thread (which I'm not saying I don't do).
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Re: Kamma

Post by simsapa »

If we put our trust in science first it can quickly change its message and leave us confused.
How so?
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Re: Kamma

Post by cappuccino »

simsapa wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:45 pm The Jains, for instance, believed that kamma was a kind of particle matter that got attached to the soul. It would then be the goal of practice to rid the soul of this matter. I'm looking for clear refutation of this view.
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