Intention in name&form in DO

[form]

"And what [monks] is name-&-form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention: This is called name. The four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form. This name & this form are, [monks], called name-&-form."

I want to ask what is the meaning of intention in the above. Is it greed, hate, delusion and their opposite?

[Bundokji]

SN 12.2 does not define intention. It is simply one of five components when name/mentality is analyzed.

[confusedlayman]

so is it saying if u see a dog and know its a dog by label.. u see form of dog and name it dog so is it witnessing name and form?

[form]

I happened to reread this section in SN just now and look at the note by Bhikkhu Bodhi. It says intention, contact and attention are included as volition. That is to say name is feeling, perception and volition. So basically name and form is the five aggregates.

Then my old question still remain. How does name and form give rise to six sense bases if this is not a rebirth model?

[DooDoot]

I want to ask what is the meaning of intention in the above.

Dependent origination is called the "wrong path" (SN 12.3).

At namarupa, intention is the intention to follow & pursue the object of the sankhara that arose at the 2nd condition.

For example, it is 10pm at night and a sankhara arises: "I feel like eating". This sankhara causes consciousness to be aware of this sankhara. Then namarupa can either:

1. Choose or intend to not follow & pursue that sankhara, such as reflecting: "I must keep healthy. This is the wrong time to eat". This is described in MN 19, as follows:

As I abided thus, diligent, ardent, and resolute, a thought of sensual desire arose in me. I understood thus: ‘This thought of sensual desire has arisen in me. This leads to my own affliction, to others’ affliction, and to the affliction of both; it obstructs wisdom, causes difficulties, and leads away from Nibbāna.’ When I considered: ‘This leads to my own affliction,’ it subsided in me; when I considered: ‘This leads to others’ affliction,’ it subsided in me; when I considered: ‘This leads to the affliction of both,’ it subsided in me; when I considered: ‘This obstructs wisdom, causes difficulties, and leads away from Nibbāna,’ it subsided in me. Whenever a thought of sensual desire arose in me, I abandoned it, removed it, did away with it.

https://suttacentral.net/mn19/en/bodhi

or

2. Choose or intend to follow & pursue that sankhara, such as give attention to finding food in the fridge or cupboard. This 2nd example of intention is dependent origination leading on to the wrong path. This is explained clearly in MN 19:

Bhikkhus, whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination (nati) of his mind. If he frequently thinks and ponders upon thoughts of sensual desire, he has abandoned the thought of renunciation to cultivate the thought of sensual desire, and then his mind inclines (namati) to thoughts of sensual desire. If he frequently thinks and ponders upon thoughts of ill will…upon thoughts of cruelty, he has abandoned the thought of non-cruelty to cultivate the thought of cruelty, and then his mind inclines (namati) to thoughts of cruelty.

https://suttacentral.net/mn19/en/bodhi

Even Buddhoghosa in his Vissudhimagga said "nama" (noun) engages in "namati" (verb; "to bend"; "to incline").

[form]

I want to ask what is the meaning of intention in the above.

Dependent origination is called the "wrong path" (SN 12.3).

At namarupa, intention is the intention to follow & pursue the object of the sankhara that arose at the 2nd condition.

For example, it is 10pm at night and a sankhara arises: "I feel like eating". This sankhara causes consciousness to be aware of this sankhara. Then namarupa can either:

1. Choose or intend to not follow & pursue that sankhara, such as reflecting: "I must keep healthy. This is the wrong time to eat". This is described in MN 19, as follows:

As I abided thus, diligent, ardent, and resolute, a thought of sensual desire arose in me. I understood thus: ‘This thought of sensual desire has arisen in me. This leads to my own affliction, to others’ affliction, and to the affliction of both; it obstructs wisdom, causes difficulties, and leads away from Nibbāna.’ When I considered: ‘This leads to my own affliction,’ it subsided in me; when I considered: ‘This leads to others’ affliction,’ it subsided in me; when I considered: ‘This leads to the affliction of both,’ it subsided in me; when I considered: ‘This obstructs wisdom, causes difficulties, and leads away from Nibbāna,’ it subsided in me. Whenever a thought of sensual desire arose in me, I abandoned it, removed it, did away with it.

https://suttacentral.net/mn19/en/bodhi

or

2. Choose or intend to follow & pursue that sankhara, such as give attention to finding food in the fridge or cupboard. This 2nd example of intention is dependent origination leading on to the wrong path. This is explained clearly in MN 19:

Bhikkhus, whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination (nati) of his mind. If he frequently thinks and ponders upon thoughts of sensual desire, he has abandoned the thought of renunciation to cultivate the thought of sensual desire, and then his mind inclines (namati) to thoughts of sensual desire. If he frequently thinks and ponders upon thoughts of ill will…upon thoughts of cruelty, he has abandoned the thought of non-cruelty to cultivate the thought of cruelty, and then his mind inclines (namati) to thoughts of cruelty.

https://suttacentral.net/mn19/en/bodhi

Even Buddhoghosa in his Vissudhimagga said "nama" (noun) engages in "namati" (verb; "to bend"; "to incline").

Your explanation is not bad and comes with sutta reference. I will study it closely tomorrow.

Before I just log in, I was having this idea to reread Dr W Rahula best seller, what the Buddha taught. Cos I recalled he wrote that out of the 5 aggregates, only volition has karmic effects (he quoted from Samsung source, there are 52 of such mental activities). And that volition in this case consist of intention, attention and contact. So the information from a few sources tally with each other.

[DooDoot]

Your explanation is not bad and comes with sutta reference. I will study it closely tomorrow.

The explanation is supramundane.

Dr W Rahula best seller, what the Buddha taught. Cos I recalled he wrote that out of the 5 aggregates, only volition has karmic effects (he quoted from Samsung source, there are 52 of such mental activities). And that volition in this case consist of intention, attention and contact. So the information from a few sources tally with each other.

Yes, only volition has karmic effects however i doubt Dr W Rahula will refer to this at namarupa. I imagine Dr W Rahula prescribes to the mundane three-life-time model, where volition having karmic effects is regarded to occur at sankhara (2nd link).

[Bundokji]

1. Choose or intend to not follow & pursue that sankhara, such as reflecting: "I must keep healthy. This is the wrong time to eat". This is described in MN 19, as follows:
As I abided thus, diligent, ardent, and resolute, a thought of sensual desire arose in me. I understood thus: ‘This thought of sensual desire has arisen in me. This leads to my own affliction, to others’ affliction, and to the affliction of both; it obstructs wisdom, causes difficulties, and leads away from Nibbāna.’ When I considered: ‘This leads to my own affliction,’ it subsided in me; when I considered: ‘This leads to others’ affliction,’ it subsided in me; when I considered: ‘This leads to the affliction of both,’ it subsided in me; when I considered: ‘This obstructs wisdom, causes difficulties, and leads away from Nibbāna,’ it subsided in me. Whenever a thought of sensual desire arose in me, I abandoned it, removed it, did away with it.

Hi DD,

Is there a difference between the intention as described in MN19, and the definition of right resolve with effluents as described in MN117?

"And what is the right resolve with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? Resolve for renunciation, resolve for freedom from ill will, resolve for harmlessness. This is the right resolve with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.

[DooDoot]

Is there a difference between the intention as described in MN19, and the definition of right resolve with effluents as described in MN117?

It appears one & the same. However, i think MN 117 is questionable to call it "with effluents" because SN 45.8 does not. i think these resolves can occur both with & without effluents.

And what is right resolve? Being resolved on renunciation, on freedom from ill will, on harmlessness: This is called right resolve

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Returning to topic, when right resolve arises at nama-rupa to abandon a 2nd link sankhara of sensuality, ill-will or cruelty, this right resolve at nama-rupa stops the stream of dependent origination. Therefore, the namarupa is no longer dependent origination but, instead, dependent cessation.

[pegembara]

so is it saying if u see a dog and know its a dog by label.. u see form of dog and name it dog so is it witnessing name and form?

Namarupa=sense experience

Rupa=Form + derivatives ie. what you see, hear, smell, taste and touch (five senses).

As you can see, without nama which involves the sixth sense there can be no sense experience.
You can even say that without consciousness there is no sense experience (aka namarupa).
Consciousness/namarupa/six sense media/feeling are all inter-related.

'It's not the case, Kotthita my friend, that consciousness is self-made, that it is other-made, that it is both self-made & other-made, or that — without self-making or other-making — it arises spontaneously.' However, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.' Now how is the meaning of these statements to be understood?"

It is as if two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one another. In the same way, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name & form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

That perception of dog(sanna) is memory that arises at the moment of contact(phassa). So consciousness doesn't "witness" dog or namarupa.

"Feeling, perception, & consciousness, friend: Are these qualities conjoined or disjoined? Is it possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them?"

"Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html

[form]

Is there a difference between the intention as described in MN19, and the definition of right resolve with effluents as described in MN117?

It appears one & the same. However, i think MN 117 is questionable to call it "with effluents" because SN 45.8 does not. i think these resolves can occur both with & without effluents.

And what is right resolve? Being resolved on renunciation, on freedom from ill will, on harmlessness: This is called right resolve

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Returning to topic, when right resolve arises at nama-rupa to abandon a 2nd link sankhara of sensuality, ill-will or cruelty, this right resolve at nama-rupa stops the stream of dependent origination. Therefore, the namarupa is no longer dependent origination but, instead, dependent cessation.

So right or wrong intention operate at this link?

[DooDoot]

So right or wrong intention operate at this link?

Imo, this can only be affirmed or refuted via one's own insight.

But in relation to Dependent Origination, it is wrong/ignorant intention operating. Keep in mind every link of Dependent Origination includes ignorance within it (as described in SN 22.81, which refers to "contact with ignorance".

With Dependent Cessation, it is right intention & appropriate attention operating, as described in MN 19.

Best wishes

[form]

So right or wrong intention operate at this link?

Imo, this can only be affirmed or refuted via one's own insight.

But in relation to Dependent Origination, it is wrong/ignorant intention operating. Keep in mind every link of Dependent Origination includes ignorance within it (as described in SN 22.81, which refers to "contact with ignorance".

With Dependent Cessation, it is right intention & appropriate attention operating, as described in MN 19.

Best wishes

I have this idea coming to me when I was walking and thinking about this topic this morning. I think taking the body as a I or mine give rise to 6 sense bases. So the translation of namarupa as mind and body is correct also. The Interpretation as 5 aggregates (one need to understand the mechanisms of how they operate) is correct too.

[sphairos]

Ven. Anālayo on the five elements of nāma and Dependent Arising:

https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... vename.pdf