Interesting Q&A in Vimuttimagga

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
form
Posts: 2084
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Interesting Q&A in Vimuttimagga

Post by form »

The question in the book is about if one is practising flying using 4th Jhana. Should he succeed in rising to considerable height and lose concentration, will he fell to his death?

The answer I saw did not really answer the question. Or maybe I did not understand the translation.
User avatar
frank k
Posts: 1074
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Interesting Q&A in Vimuttimagga

Post by frank k »

form wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:17 am The question in the book is about if one is practising flying using 4th Jhana. Should he succeed in rising to considerable height and lose concentration, will he fell to his death?

The answer I saw did not really answer the question. Or maybe I did not understand the translation.
Doesn't really help if you don't give a link, page #, or quote the passage.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
User avatar
Eko Care
Posts: 300
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:13 am

Re: Interesting Q&A in Vimuttimagga

Post by Eko Care »

form wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:17 am The answer I saw did not really answer the question. Or maybe I did not understand the translation.
There were number of problems like that.
For an example:
Definitions of some of the phenomena, Divine states, Caste discrimination, Unorthodox opinions ...etc.
More infomation:
robertk wrote: just a note that the Vimuttimagga is not a orthodox Theravada text - it may have been composed by the Abhayagiri School.

https://dhamma.discoursehosting.net/t/v ... ing-pts/43
Do you think you know better than the ancient Sangha ?
classicaltheravada.wordpress.com
asahi
Posts: 340
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:23 pm

Re: Interesting Q&A in Vimuttimagga

Post by asahi »

Eko Care wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:31 pm There were number of problems like that.
For an example:
Definitions of some of the phenomena, Divine states, Caste discrimination, Unorthodox opinions ...etc.
More infomation:
robertk wrote: just a note that the Vimuttimagga is not a orthodox Theravada text - it may have been composed by the Abhayagiri School.

https://dhamma.discoursehosting.net/t/v ... ing-pts/43
Hi if may ask , which part of the text that describe caste discrimination ? If you could show us the chinese statement then it would be great .
User avatar
Eko Care
Posts: 300
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:13 am

Re: Interesting Q&A in Vimuttimagga

Post by Eko Care »

asahi wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:51 pm Hi if may ask , which part of the text that describe caste discrimination ? If you could show us the chinese statement then it would be great .
I'm not good in Chinese, so hard to find likns now (may be later).
Nevertheless,we have read Professor Bapat's opinions about Vimuttimagga.
Professor Bapat:
"Let us note one peculiar fact about Upatissa. He seems to have some kindof contempt for, or low opinion of, a Canddla" (p. xlvi).

"At another place, to see a Canddlaon the way is considered to be a sufficient reason for the laxity in the observance of the practice of sapaddna-cdrikd (going from house to house in successionfor begging one's food)" (p. xlvi).

"Upatissa says that if a mendicant sees a Canddla on the way, he should cover his begging-bowl and may skip over some houses and gofurther. In the third place we find a lack of conscientiousness (ahirika) is compared to a Canddla" (pp. xlvi-xlvii).
(path to freedom)
Yet another way of getting clues:
Eko Care wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:58 pm
retrofuturist wrote:
See also this old topic on the Vimuttimagga.
A former Dhamma Wheel member who I regard as an arya, spoke highly of it.
Any one who have common sense about modern people's arya titles,
may quickly judge the book and it's followers, seeing the above comment.
What is more reliable? Visuddhi Magga or Vimuttimagga?
Lucas Oliveira wrote: Vimuttimagga is the oldest ..
So it is closer to the Canon in Pali.
and so it can be more reliable.
Is the above a good way of judging reliability ?
Someone might end up concluding Mahasamghika doctrine as more reliable, If you use this dating technique.
Do you think you know better than the ancient Sangha ?
classicaltheravada.wordpress.com
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 4623
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Interesting Q&A in Vimuttimagga

Post by confusedlayman »

form wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:17 am The question in the book is about if one is practising flying using 4th Jhana. Should he succeed in rising to considerable height and lose concentration, will he fell to his death?

The answer I saw did not really answer the question. Or maybe I did not understand the translation.
How
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
form
Posts: 2084
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: Interesting Q&A in Vimuttimagga

Post by form »

frank k wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:08 pm
form wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:17 am The question in the book is about if one is practising flying using 4th Jhana. Should he succeed in rising to considerable height and lose concentration, will he fell to his death?

The answer I saw did not really answer the question. Or maybe I did not understand the translation.
Doesn't really help if you don't give a link, page #, or quote the passage.
I bought a physical book from India. If u can find online version, look at its chapter on supernormal power. The information in this book supported my idea that being able to glide in air, walk on water, moving through solid barrier are about using mental power to transform molecular characteristics.
User avatar
Lucas Oliveira
Posts: 1433
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:07 pm

Re: Interesting Q&A in Vimuttimagga

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:43 pm
form wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:17 am The question in the book is about if one is practising flying using 4th Jhana. Should he succeed in rising to considerable height and lose concentration, will he fell to his death?

The answer I saw did not really answer the question. Or maybe I did not understand the translation.
How
AN 9.35: Gavi Sutta — The Cow {A iv 418} [Thanissaro].

The Buddha explains that if you try to move on to the next level of concentration before you've mastered the last, you're sure to stumble, like a foolish cow on a steep hill.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... x.html#an9
"Suppose there was a mountain cow — foolish, inexperienced, unfamiliar with her pasture, unskilled in roaming on rugged mountains — and she were to think, 'What if I were to go in a direction I have never gone before, to eat grass I have never eaten before, to drink water I have never drunk before!' She would lift her hind hoof without having placed her front hoof firmly and [as a result] would not get to go in a direction she had never gone before, to eat grass she had never eaten before, or to drink water she had never drunk before. And as for the place where she was standing when the thought occurred to her, 'What if I were to go where I have never been before... to drink water I have never drunk before,' she would not return there safely. Why is that? Because she is a foolish, inexperienced mountain cow, unfamiliar with her pasture, unskilled in roaming on rugged mountains.

"In the same way, there are cases where a monk — foolish, inexperienced, unfamiliar with his pasture, unskilled in being quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, and entering & remaining in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation — doesn't stick with that theme, doesn't develop it, pursue it, or establish himself firmly in it. The thought occurs to him, 'What if I, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, were to enter & remain in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance.' He is not able... to enter & remain in the second jhana... The thought occurs to him, 'What if I... were to enter & remain in the first jhana... He is not able... to enter & remain in the first jhana. This is called a monk who has slipped & fallen from both sides, like the mountain cow, foolish, inexperienced, unfamiliar with her pasture, unskilled in roaming on rugged mountains.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:namaste:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/
User avatar
Lucas Oliveira
Posts: 1433
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:07 pm

Re: Interesting Q&A in Vimuttimagga

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

Eko Care wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:12 pm
Lucas Oliveira wrote: Vimuttimagga is the oldest ..
So it is closer to the Canon in Pali.
and so it can be more reliable.
Is the above a good way of judging reliability ?
Someone might end up concluding Mahasamghika doctrine as more reliable, If you use this dating technique.
many people like Theravada Buddhism because it has the Pali Canon as the source of the Buddha's Teachings.

Because Canon Pali has the oldest texts linked to the Buddha.

using this reasoning, Vimuttimagga can be more important than texts that came later.

of course if there is any text that goes against the Buddha's own teachings, that text may be wrong

:namaste:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/
User avatar
Lucas Oliveira
Posts: 1433
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:07 pm

Re: Interesting Q&A in Vimuttimagga

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

Eko Care wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:31 pm
form wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:17 am The answer I saw did not really answer the question. Or maybe I did not understand the translation.
There were number of problems like that.
For an example:
Definitions of some of the phenomena, Divine states, Caste discrimination, Unorthodox opinions ...etc.
More infomation:
robertk wrote: just a note that the Vimuttimagga is not a orthodox Theravada text - it may have been composed by the Abhayagiri School.

https://dhamma.discoursehosting.net/t/v ... ing-pts/43
Lucas Oliveira wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:40 am
greenjuice wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:49 pm I wouldn't go as far to say schismatic, but yes, Buddhaghosa's talk of nimittas is curiously different than previous such talk.

The Vimuttimagga (from 100 CE) says the following about the nimitta (sign) in the section Mindfulness of Breathing – Procedure:

"To the yogin who attends to the incoming breath with mind that is cleansed of the nine lesser defilements the nimitta arises with a pleasant feeling similar to that which is produced in the action of spinning cotton or silk cotton. Also, it is likened to the pleasant feeling produced by a breeze. Thus during breathing in and out, air touches the nose or the lip and causes the setting-up of air perception mindfulness. This does not depend on colour or form. This is called the nimitta. If the yogin develops the nimitta and increases it at the nose-tip, between the eyebrows, on the forehead or establishes it in several places, he feels as if his head were filled with air. Through increasing in this way his whole body is charged with bliss. This is called perfection.

And again, there is a yogin he sees several nimittas from the beginning. He sees various forms such as smoke, mist, dust, sand of gold, or he experiences something similar to the pricking of a needle or to an ant's bite. If his mind does not become clear regarding these different nimittas, he will be confused. Thus he fulfils overturning and does not gain the perception of respiration. If his mind becomes clear, the yogin does not experience confusion. He attends to respiration and he does not cause the arising of other perceptions. ... If his mind is not disturbed, he will destroy the hindrances, and arouse the jhāna factors."

But in the Visuddhimagga 400 years later nimittas, and in particular the visual nimittas, become the object of focused attention that brings one to full absorption and thence to the jhānas. The change is not a slight one, it's the opposite thing. In Vimuttimagga visual nimittas are the visual signs of good concentration that should be ignored, whereas in Visuddhimagga visual sign becoming the heart of the method.
Another question ...

Why does Vimuttimagga call the practitioner "yogin"?
The Vimuttimagga ("Path of Freedom") is a Buddhist practice manual, traditionally attributed to the Arahant Upatissa (c. 1st or 2nd century[1]). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vimuttimagga
Why not call Bhikkhu or Monk the same in Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta?
“There is the case where a monk—having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building—sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and establishing mindfulness to the fore.6 Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out.
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/DN/DN22.html
:anjali:
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:43 am
Lucas Oliveira wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:40 amWhy does Vimuttimagga call the practitioner "yogin"?

[...]

Why not call Bhikkhu or Monk the same in Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta?
I think it is an artefact of the translation from Chinese.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=38134&p=582016
The Vimuttimagga ("Path of Freedom") is a Buddhist practice manual, traditionally attributed to the Arahant Upatissa (c. 1st or 2nd century[1]). It was translated into Chinese in the sixth century as the Jietuo dao lun 解脫道論 by Sanghapala. The original text (possibly Pali or Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit) is no longer extant, but the work has survived in Chinese. The book was probably written in India and then later brought to Sri Lanka.[1] Some doctrines of the Vimuttimagga have been associated with those attributed to the Abhayagiri monastery by Dhammapāla, but this has been disputed in recent scholarship.[2][3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vimuttimagga
Another example that Vimuttimagga may have suffered many influences from Chinese Translation.

:namaste:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/
form
Posts: 2084
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: Interesting Q&A in Vimuttimagga

Post by form »

The term yogin could just mean a trainer in the spiritual path. It does not suggest this is hatha yoga or something like that.
User avatar
Lucas Oliveira
Posts: 1433
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:07 pm

Re: Interesting Q&A in Vimuttimagga

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

form wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:30 pm The term yogin could just mean a trainer in the spiritual path. It does not suggest this is hatha yoga or something like that.
a Buddhist commentary could use more Buddhist terms.

this may show that the translator was a little distant from Buddhism.

for example, flying using the concentration of the fourth jhana .. this reminds me of the legends of ancient china.

to use the term yogin in place of Bhikkhu or Monk, it seems to be a person who is mixing too much Hinduism with Buddhism.

in the west, some prejudices about meditation are common.

When people talk about meditation, some people already think that they are going to levitate.



:namaste:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/
form
Posts: 2084
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: Interesting Q&A in Vimuttimagga

Post by form »

Lucas Oliveira wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:43 pm
form wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:30 pm The term yogin could just mean a trainer in the spiritual path. It does not suggest this is hatha yoga or something like that.
a Buddhist commentary could use more Buddhist terms.

this may show that the translator was a little distant from Buddhism.

for example, flying using the concentration of the fourth jhana .. this reminds me of the legends of ancient china.

to use the term yogin in place of Bhikkhu or Monk, it seems to be a person who is mixing too much Hinduism with Buddhism.

in the accident, some prejudices about meditation are common.

When people talk about meditation, some people already think that they are going to levitate.



:namaste:
No sir. This levitation part is just in a Qand A in the supernormal power chapter. I do not think the translation of the whole book is off because of that. It could have been properly translated but the meaning in the original text is also like that. This has got nothing to do with flying around in kungfu movie. Levitation is very common theme in ancient India yoga culture as well, have u seen a trick where a magic performer sit on a special high stool covers by cloth to demonstrate sitting in the air?

The term yogin is probably chosen by the person that translate the text from Chinese to English. I have not seen the Chinese text, but my guess is it could mean a spiritual practicer.

Before Buddhism first appear in China, Taoism is the most prevalent systematic religion there. This is why many terms used in translation of Buddhism text could be taoist meditation or alchemy terms.
User avatar
Lucas Oliveira
Posts: 1433
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:07 pm

Re: Interesting Q&A in Vimuttimagga

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

form wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:59 pm
No sir. This levitation part is just in a Qand A in the supernormal power chapter. I do not think the translation of the whole book is off because of that. It could have been properly translated but the meaning in the original text is also like that. This has got nothing to do with flying around in kungfu movie. Levitation is very common theme in ancient India yoga culture as well, have u seen a trick where a magic performer sit on a special high stool covers by cloth to demonstrate sitting in the air?

The term yogin is probably chosen by the person that translate the text from Chinese to English. I have not seen the Chinese text, but my guess is it could mean a spiritual practicer.

Before Buddhism first appear in China, Taoism is the most prevalent systematic religion there. This is why many terms used in translation of Buddhism text could be taoist meditation or alchemy terms.
I am not saying that the entire translation of this book is wrong.

I think Vimuttimagga is more original and more important because it is older.

but there are some things wrong in the book and I think those errors may be due to the translation.

For example the term Yogin and the prejudice against castes.

Levitation appears in the Canon in Pali.
[5] "He experiences manifold supranormal powers. Having been one he becomes many; having been many he becomes one. He appears. He vanishes. He goes unimpeded through walls, ramparts, & mountains as if through space. He dives in & out of the earth as if it were water. He walks on water without sinking as if it were dry land. Sitting crosslegged he flies through the air like a winged bird. With his hand he touches & strokes even the sun & moon, so mighty & powerful. He exercises influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
But Levitation have more prominence in Hindu and Chinese Culture.

:namaste:
Last edited by Lucas Oliveira on Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/
form
Posts: 2084
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: Interesting Q&A in Vimuttimagga

Post by form »

Lucas Oliveira wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:31 am
form wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:59 pm
No sir. This levitation part is just in a Qand A in the supernormal power chapter. I do not think the translation of the whole book is off because of that. It could have been properly translated but the meaning in the original text is also like that. This has got nothing to do with flying around in kungfu movie. Levitation is very common theme in ancient India yoga culture as well, have u seen a trick where a magic performer sit on a special high stool covers by cloth to demonstrate sitting in the air?

The term yogin is probably chosen by the person that translate the text from Chinese to English. I have not seen the Chinese text, but my guess is it could mean a spiritual practicer.

Before Buddhism first appear in China, Taoism is the most prevalent systematic religion there. This is why many terms used in translation of Buddhism text could be taoist meditation or alchemy terms.
I am not saying that the entire translation of this book is wrong.

I think Vimuttimagga is more original and more important because it is older.

but there are some things wrong in the book and I think those errors may be due to the translation.

For example the term Yogin and the prejudice against castes.

:namaste:
OK bro. I will see where I can find the part in prejudice against castes and examine it.
Post Reply