Anagami have no anger because they dont possess anything?

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confusedlayman
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Anagami have no anger because they dont possess anything?

Post by confusedlayman »

Is anger rise due to possension? Or thinking of possession? Anagami dont possess anything so they free from anger as they are mostly monks or layman with no attachment ?
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pitithefool
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Re: Anagami have no anger because they dont possess anything?

Post by pitithefool »

Anagami see the drawbacks in anger so they don't engage in it. It destroys concentration. It's unwholesome and leads to harm.
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DooDoot
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Re: Anagami have no anger because they dont possess anything?

Post by DooDoot »

Anagami have no anger because they can, at will, abide in the 4th jhana. Therefore, their mind is always too peaceful to generate anger.
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Re: Anagami have no anger because they dont possess anything?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings DooDoot,
DooDoot wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:19 pm Anagami have no anger because they can, at will, abide in the 4th jhana.
Interesting. Can you please show the sutta origin of this statement?

Metta,
Paul. :)
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DooDoot
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Re: Anagami have no anger because they dont possess anything?

Post by DooDoot »

retrofuturist wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:06 pm Interesting. Can you please show the sutta origin of this statement?
Sensuality & ill-will are two distinct co-fetters. When sensuality ends, it appears ill-will also ends in the non-returner.
One freed from the bond of sensual desire but still bound by the bond of being is a non-returner, one who does not come back to this state.

Iti 96
But when I saw as it actually was with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair & greater drawbacks, and I had attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that, that was when I claimed that I could not be tempted by sensuality

MN 14
Also, the 4th jhana is the abiding in equanimity. The suttas say:
Meditate on equanimity. For when you meditate on equanimity any repulsion/irritation (paṭigho) will be given up.

MN 62; MN 118
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Anagami have no anger because they dont possess anything?

Post by Alino »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 2:34 pm Is anger rise due to possension? Or thinking of possession? Anagami dont possess anything so they free from anger as they are mostly monks or layman with no attachment ?
pitithefool wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:54 pm Anagami see the drawbacks in anger so they don't engage in it. It destroys concentration. It's unwholesome and leads to harm.
DooDoot wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:19 pm Anagami have no anger because they can, at will, abide in the 4th jhana. Therefore, their mind is always too peaceful to generate anger.
I suppose that it's some mix of the 3... but who knows?
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

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SarathW
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Re: Anagami have no anger because they dont possess anything?

Post by SarathW »

retrofuturist wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:06 pm Greetings DooDoot,
DooDoot wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:19 pm Anagami have no anger because they can, at will, abide in the 4th jhana.
Interesting. Can you please show the sutta origin of this statement?

Metta,
Paul. :)
Good question.
The statement is incorrect and it assumes that all Anagamis experience the fourth Jhana.
This is why it is important to understand the difference between Jhanaanga and Bojjanga.
Because you have some characteristics of Jhananga in Bojjanaga some scholars misinterpret Bojjanga as Jhananaga because they have only the book knowledge not the practical.
This is a gave mistake!
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Anagami have no anger because they dont possess anything?

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:34 am The statement is incorrect and it assumes that all Anagamis experience the fourth Jhana.
:strawman: :jedi: :|
Take another case of a mendicant who has fulfilled their ethics and immersion, but has limited wisdom.

With the ending of the five lower fetters they’re reborn spontaneously. They are extinguished there, and are not liable to return from that world.

https://suttacentral.net/an3.86/en/sujato
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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SarathW
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Re: Anagami have no anger because they dont possess anything?

Post by SarathW »

retrofuturist wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:06 pm Greetings DooDoot,
DooDoot wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:19 pm Anagami have no anger because they can, at will, abide in the 4th jhana.
Interesting. Can you please show the sutta origin of this statement?

Metta,
Paul. :)
Another point is that some scholars misunderstand that all Forth Jhana attainers are born in Suddhavasa.
(suddhavasa), which are accessible only to non-returners (anagami) and arahants. Beings who become non-returners in other planes are reborn here, where they attain arahantship.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... /loka.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
pegembara
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Re: Anagami have no anger because they dont possess anything?

Post by pegembara »

They still possess the conceit or perception of "I am".
"Friend, concerning these five clinging-aggregates described by the Blessed One — i.e., form as a clinging-aggregate... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate: With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, there is nothing I assume to be self or belonging to self, and yet I am not an arahant. With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, 'I am' has not been overcome, although I don't assume that 'I am this.'"

"Friends, even though a noble disciple has abandoned the five lower fetters, he still has with regard to the five clinging-aggregates a lingering residual 'I am' conceit, an 'I am' desire, an 'I am' obsession. But at a later time he keeps focusing on the phenomena of arising & passing away with regard to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origin, such its disappearance.' As he keeps focusing on the arising & passing away of these five clinging-aggregates, the lingering residual 'I am' conceit, 'I am' desire, 'I am' obsession is fully obliterated.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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DooDoot
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Re: Anagami have no anger because they dont possess anything?

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:24 am Another point is that some scholars misunderstand that all Forth Jhana attainers are born in Suddhavasa.
Obviously nearly every Arahant was once a Non-Returner during their single lifetime. Instead of being born in a mythical Suddhavasa, these Non-Returners ended the last five fetters and became Arahants.

The above said, Suddhavasa merely means "pure abode". The 4th jhana is a pure abode. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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SarathW
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Re: Anagami have no anger because they dont possess anything?

Post by SarathW »

pegembara wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:35 am They still possess the conceit or perception of "I am".
"Friend, concerning these five clinging-aggregates described by the Blessed One — i.e., form as a clinging-aggregate... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate: With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, there is nothing I assume to be self or belonging to self, and yet I am not an arahant. With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, 'I am' has not been overcome, although I don't assume that 'I am this.'"

"Friends, even though a noble disciple has abandoned the five lower fetters, he still has with regard to the five clinging-aggregates a lingering residual 'I am' conceit, an 'I am' desire, an 'I am' obsession. But at a later time he keeps focusing on the phenomena of arising & passing away with regard to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origin, such its disappearance.' As he keeps focusing on the arising & passing away of these five clinging-aggregates, the lingering residual 'I am' conceit, 'I am' desire, 'I am' obsession is fully obliterated.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The point here in the above post is that you do not get angry when you have a self-view.
Does this mean Sotapanna and Anagami also not get angry as they have eliminated self-view?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Anagami have no anger because they dont possess anything?

Post by pegembara »

SarathW wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:52 am
pegembara wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:35 am They still possess the conceit or perception of "I am".
"Friend, concerning these five clinging-aggregates described by the Blessed One — i.e., form as a clinging-aggregate... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate: With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, there is nothing I assume to be self or belonging to self, and yet I am not an arahant. With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, 'I am' has not been overcome, although I don't assume that 'I am this.'"

"Friends, even though a noble disciple has abandoned the five lower fetters, he still has with regard to the five clinging-aggregates a lingering residual 'I am' conceit, an 'I am' desire, an 'I am' obsession. But at a later time he keeps focusing on the phenomena of arising & passing away with regard to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origin, such its disappearance.' As he keeps focusing on the arising & passing away of these five clinging-aggregates, the lingering residual 'I am' conceit, 'I am' desire, 'I am' obsession is fully obliterated.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The point here in the above post is that you do not get angry when you have a self-view.
Does this mean Sotapanna and Anagami also not get angry as they have eliminated self-view?
Even if you are without a doubt that there is no fixed self, the perception of a centre still persists.

The "I am" conceit is only gotten rid of by the arahant. There is no centre left. How can any anger arise if there are no more likes and dislikes? Feeling just as feelings.

The sotapanna and anagami knows that "smoking" is harmful. The anagami can perhaps control his anger at will by the jhanas whereas the arahant has no need to do so.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Anagami have no anger because they dont possess anything?

Post by SarathW »

pegembara wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:54 am
SarathW wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:52 am
pegembara wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:35 am They still possess the conceit or perception of "I am".

The point here in the above post is that you do not get angry when you have a self-view.
Does this mean Sotapanna and Anagami also not get angry as they have eliminated self-view?
Even if you are without a doubt that there is no fixed self, the perception of a centre still persists.

The "I am" conceit is only gotten rid of by the arahant. There is no centre left. How can any anger arise if there are no more likes and dislikes?
The sotapanna and anagami knows that "smoking" is harmful. The anagami can perhaps control his anger at will by the jhanas whereas the arahant has no need to do so.
Sorry. You did not get my point.
The OP question is why Angami does not have anger.
Is that because they don't have sensual pleasures or self-view or something else.
Then your answer has to tally with Sotapanna and Sakdhagami.
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Re: Anagami have no anger because they dont possess anything?

Post by Pulsar »

OP wrote
Anagami dont possess anything so they free from anger as they are mostly monks or layman with no attachment ?
Where did you read this? you appear to get your information from the internet.
This statement goes against the core of the teaching. As for some who advise you, pl be careful. Some invent their own truths, and interpret the suttas to suit those truths.
I remember Ven. Sujatho saying on his visit to California, that different buddhisms are born, in different locations of California. Who knows perhaps different buddhisms are born on DW on a daily basis.
Fortunately Buddha taught Kalama sutta.
Don't be in a hurry to be an Anagamin. Check out Right View. If you get that right, at least you will be a Sotapanna, and then you will know who is telling the truth and who is not, when you seek advice.
A good discussion is happening right now on Sutta study lead by SDC. viewtopic.php?f=25&t=39825

That should get you started on Right View.
With love :candle:
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