Looking for a sutta

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asahi
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Looking for a sutta

Post by asahi »

Hi forum ,


Which sutta state nibbana is the cessation of six sense sphere ?

Thanks .
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Re: Looking for a sutta

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asahi wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:05 pm Hi forum ,


Which sutta state nibbana is the cessation of six sense sphere ?

Thanks .
Pretty much any sutta that describes the collapse of DO and “this mass of suffering”. Don’t recall any with saḷāyatana on its own.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Looking for a sutta

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SN 12.19 comes close considering the focus on phassa and saḷāyatana.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Looking for a sutta

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SDC wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:10 pm SN 12.19 comes close considering the focus on phassa and saḷāyatana.
Thanks , but it doesnt says the cessation of six sense field is the nibbana state .
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Re: Looking for a sutta

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asahi wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:45 pm
SDC wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:10 pm SN 12.19 comes close considering the focus on phassa and saḷāyatana.
Thanks , but it doesnt says the cessation of six sense field is the nibbana state .
Try SN 35.71 when SuttaCentral stops glitching.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Looking for a sutta

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asahi wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:45 pm
SDC wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:10 pm SN 12.19 comes close considering the focus on phassa and saḷāyatana.
Thanks , but it doesnt says the cessation of six sense field is the nibbana state .
But keep this in mind: the cessation of the six fields is the cessation of contact, so you’re usually going to only find it with all 12 layers of DO and the cessation of all is nibbana.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Looking for a sutta

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asahi wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:05 pm Which sutta state nibbana is the cessation of six sense sphere ?
Sort of irrelevant question if the word "cessation" ("nirodha") is misconstrued.
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Re: Looking for a sutta

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DooDoot wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:00 pm Sort of irrelevant question if the word "cessation" ("nirodha") is misconstrued.
Why not help explain ? And if cessation has anything to do with cessation of six sense sphere .
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Re: Looking for a sutta

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asahi wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:05 pm Which sutta state nibbana is the cessation of six sense sphere ?
SN 12.12
Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of ... aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair ....

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nypo.html
AN 4.174
When the six fields of contact fade away and cease with nothing left over, proliferation stops and is stilled.

Channaṁ, āvuso, phassāyatanānaṁ asesavirāganirodhā papañcanirodho papañcavūpasamo”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/an4.174/en/sujato
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Re: Looking for a sutta

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DooDoot wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:12 am AN 4.174
When the six fields of contact fade away and cease with nothing left over, proliferation stops and is stilled.

Channaṁ, āvuso, phassāyatanānaṁ asesavirāganirodhā papañcanirodho papañcavūpasamo”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/an4.174/en/sujato
Do you mind elaborate more here ? Six sense field does not function or stops functioning ?


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Re: Looking for a sutta

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asahi wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:25 am Do you mind elaborate more here ? Six sense field does not function or stops functioning ?
On seeing a form with the eye, he does not lust after it if it is pleasing; he does not dislike it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body established, with an immeasurable mind, and he understands as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Having thus abandoned favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, he does not delight in that feeling, welcome it, or remain holding to it. As he does not do so, delight in feelings ceases in him. With the cessation of his delight comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of being; with the cessation of being, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.

https://suttacentral.net/mn38/en/bodhi
What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element with residue left.

https://suttacentral.net/iti44/en/ireland
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Looking for a sutta

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DooDoot wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:49 am
On seeing a form with the eye, he does not lust after it if it is pleasing; he does not dislike it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body established, with an immeasurable mind, and he understands as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Having thus abandoned favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, he does not delight in that feeling, welcome it, or remain holding to it. As he does not do so, delight in feelings ceases in him. With the cessation of his delight comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of being; with the cessation of being, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.

https://suttacentral.net/mn38/en/bodhi
What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element with residue left.

https://suttacentral.net/iti44/en/ireland
When the six fields of contact fade away and cease with nothing left over, proliferation stops and is stilled.
On seeing a form with the eye, he does not lust after it . He abides with mindfulness of the body established, with an immeasurable mind .



I do not understand how both corresponds or matching . If the contact is ceased , that is in contrast with the mind abiding in immeasurable where it is still active .
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Re: Looking for a sutta

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asahi wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:10 am I do not understand how both corresponds or matching . If the contact is ceased , that is in contrast with the mind abiding in immeasurable where it is still active .
A problem with the word "nirodha"

The word nirodha has been translated as "cessation" for so long that it has become standard practice, and any deviation from it leads to queries. Even in this book I have opted for this standard translation for sake of convenience and to avoid confusing it for other Pali terms (apart from lack of a better word). In fact, however, this rendering of the word "nirodha" as "ceased" can in many instances be a mis-rendering of the text.

Generally speaking, the word "cease" means to do away with something which has already arisen, or the stopping of something which has already begun. However, nirodha in the teaching of Dependent Origination (as also in dukkhanirodha, the third of the Four Noble Truths) means the non-arising, or non-existence, of something because the cause of its arising is done away with. For example, the phrase "when avijja is nirodha, sankhara are also nirodha," which is usually taken to mean "with the cessation of ignorance, volitional impulses cease," in fact means "when there is no ignorance, or no arising of ignorance, or when there is no longer any problem with ignorance, there are no volitional impulses, volitional impulses do not arise, or there is no longer any problem with volitional impulses." It does not mean that ignorance already arisen must be done away with before the volitional impulses which have already arisen will also be done away with.

Where nirodha should be rendered as cessation is when it is used in reference to the natural way of things, or the nature of compounded things. In this sense it is a synonym for the words bhanga, breaking up, anicca, transient, khaya, cessation or vaya, decay. For example, in the Pali it is given: imam kho bhikkhave tisso vedana anicca sankhata paticcasamuppanna khayadhamma vayadhamma viragadhamma nirodhadhamma: "Monks, these three kinds of feeling are naturally impermanent, compounded, dependently arisen, transient, subject to decay, dissolution, fading and cessation."[S.IV.214] (All of the factors occurring in the Dependent Origination cycle have the same nature.) In this instance, the meaning is "all conditioned things (sankhara), having arisen, must inevitably decay and fade according to supporting factors." There is no need to try to stop them, they cease of themselves. Here the intention is to describe a natural condition which, in terms of practice, simply means "that which arises can be done away with."

As for nirodha in the third Noble Truth (or the Dependent Origination cycle in cessation mode), although it also describes a natural process, its emphasis is on practical considerations. It is translated in two ways in the Visuddhimagga. One way traces the etymology to "ni" (without) + "rodha" (prison, confine, obstacle, wall, impediment), thus rendering the meaning as "without impediment," "free of confinement." This is explained as "free of impediments, that is, the confinement of samsara." Another definition traces the origin to anuppada, meaning "not arising", and goes on to say "nirodha here does not mean bhanga, breaking up and dissolution."

Therefore, translating nirodha as "cessation", although not entirely wrong, is nevertheless not entirely accurate. On the other hand, there is no other word which comes so close to the essential meaning as "cessation." However, we should understand what is meant by the term. In this context, the Dependent Origination cycle in its cessation mode might be better rendered as "being free of ignorance, there is freedom from volitional impulses ..." or "when ignorance is gone, volitional impulses are gone ..." or "when ignorance ceases to give fruit, volitional impulses cease to give fruit ..." or "when ignorance is no longer a problem, volitional impulses are no longer a problem."

Even in the forward mode, there are some problems with definitions. The meaning of many of the Pali terms are too broad to be translated into any single English words. For instance, avijja paccaya sankhara also means "When ignorance is like this, volitional impulses are like this; volitional impulses being this way, consciousness is like this; consciousness being this way, body and mind are like this; ..."


https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Payu ... tm#problem

There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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asahi
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Re: Looking for a sutta

Post by asahi »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:34 am
A problem with the word "nirodha"

The word nirodha has been translated as "cessation" for so long that it has become standard practice, and any deviation from it leads to queries. Even in this book I have opted for this standard translation for sake of convenience and to avoid confusing it for other Pali terms (apart from lack of a better word). In fact, however, this rendering of the word "nirodha" as "ceased" can in many instances be a mis-rendering of the text.

Generally speaking, the word "cease" means to do away with something which has already arisen, or the stopping of something which has already begun. However, nirodha in the teaching of Dependent Origination (as also in dukkhanirodha, the third of the Four Noble Truths) means the non-arising, or non-existence, of something because the cause of its arising is done away with. For example, the phrase "when avijja is nirodha, sankhara are also nirodha," which is usually taken to mean "with the cessation of ignorance, volitional impulses cease," in fact means "when there is no ignorance, or no arising of ignorance, or when there is no longer any problem with ignorance, there are no volitional impulses, volitional impulses do not arise, or there is no longer any problem with volitional impulses." It does not mean that ignorance already arisen must be done away with before the volitional impulses which have already arisen will also be done away with.

Where nirodha should be rendered as cessation is when it is used in reference to the natural way of things, or the nature of compounded things. In this sense it is a synonym for the words bhanga, breaking up, anicca, transient, khaya, cessation or vaya, decay. For example, in the Pali it is given: imam kho bhikkhave tisso vedana anicca sankhata paticcasamuppanna khayadhamma vayadhamma viragadhamma nirodhadhamma: "Monks, these three kinds of feeling are naturally impermanent, compounded, dependently arisen, transient, subject to decay, dissolution, fading and cessation."[S.IV.214] (All of the factors occurring in the Dependent Origination cycle have the same nature.) In this instance, the meaning is "all conditioned things (sankhara), having arisen, must inevitably decay and fade according to supporting factors." There is no need to try to stop them, they cease of themselves. Here the intention is to describe a natural condition which, in terms of practice, simply means "that which arises can be done away with."

As for nirodha in the third Noble Truth (or the Dependent Origination cycle in cessation mode), although it also describes a natural process, its emphasis is on practical considerations. It is translated in two ways in the Visuddhimagga. One way traces the etymology to "ni" (without) + "rodha" (prison, confine, obstacle, wall, impediment), thus rendering the meaning as "without impediment," "free of confinement." This is explained as "free of impediments, that is, the confinement of samsara." Another definition traces the origin to anuppada, meaning "not arising", and goes on to say "nirodha here does not mean bhanga, breaking up and dissolution."

Therefore, translating nirodha as "cessation", although not entirely wrong, is nevertheless not entirely accurate. On the other hand, there is no other word which comes so close to the essential meaning as "cessation." However, we should understand what is meant by the term. In this context, the Dependent Origination cycle in its cessation mode might be better rendered as "being free of ignorance, there is freedom from volitional impulses ..." or "when ignorance is gone, volitional impulses are gone ..." or "when ignorance ceases to give fruit, volitional impulses cease to give fruit ..." or "when ignorance is no longer a problem, volitional impulses are no longer a problem."

Even in the forward mode, there are some problems with definitions. The meaning of many of the Pali terms are too broad to be translated into any single English words. For instance, avijja paccaya sankhara also means "When ignorance is like this, volitional impulses are like this; volitional impulses being this way, consciousness is like this; consciousness being this way, body and mind are like this; ..."


https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Payu ... tm#problem

Much thanks
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Re: Looking for a sutta

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asahi wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:40 am Much thanks
SN 22.5
"And what is the origination of form? ...feeling? ...perception? ...fabrications? What is the origination of consciousness?

"There is the case where one enjoys, welcomes, & remains fastened. And what does one enjoy & welcome, to what does one remain fastened? One enjoys, welcomes, & remains fastened to form. As one enjoys, welcomes, & remains fastened to form, there arises delight. Any delight in form is clinging. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"One enjoys, welcomes, & remains fastened to feeling... perception... fabrications...

"One enjoys, welcomes, & remains fastened to consciousness. As one enjoys, welcomes, & remains fastened to consciousness, there arises delight. Any delight in consciousness is clinging. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"This, monks, is the origination of form. This, the origination of feeling... perception... fabrications. This, the origination of consciousness."

"And what is the disappearance of form? ...feeling? ...perception? ...fabrications? What is the disappearance of consciousness?

"There is the case where one doesn't enjoy, welcome or remain fastened. And what does one not enjoy or welcome, to what does one not remain fastened? One doesn't enjoy, welcome, or remain fastened to form. As one doesn't enjoy, welcome, or remain fastened to form, any delight in form ceases. From the cessation of delight comes the cessation of clinging. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance, the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming, the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"One doesn't enjoy, welcome, or remain fastened to feeling... perception... fabrications...

"One doesn't enjoy, welcome, or remain fastened to consciousness. As one doesn't enjoy, welcome, or remain fastened to consciousness, any delight in consciousness ceases. From the cessation of delight comes the cessation of clinging. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance, the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming, the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"This, monks, is the disappearance of form. This, the disappearance of feeling... perception... fabrications. This, the disappearance of consciousness."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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