Beginning with a disrespect towards commentaries

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SDC
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Re: Beginning with a disrespect towards commentaries

Post by SDC »

plabit wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:51 pm
SDC wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:41 pm I used to be a “commentaries aren’t necessary” guy until several members here, along with AK Warder, took me to school on just how invaluable the work of ancient grammarians and scholars is to the translation process.
...But using a text to help define words in an ancient language with a rather limited literature and subjugating yourself to that text as a doctrinal aurhority are two completely different things.
Indeed they are, and anyone who tries that combination is bound not to move. What in my post appears to advocate subjugation? Or are you just speaking generally?
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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SDC
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Re: Beginning with a disrespect towards commentaries

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Eko Care wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:16 pm And Maria Heim is one of the very few scholars ...
It’s the scholar’s motivation that bothers me. Even if they claim to be a practitioner, rarely does their work reflect a personal encounter with the material. Difficult to follow the lead of those who don’t seem to realize that is what is most significant when “mere reason” has taken you just about as far as it can.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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mikenz66
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Re: Beginning with a disrespect towards commentaries

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Hi SDC,
SDC wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:41 pm This is when a teacher becomes invaluable. Not a teacher who guides you through their interpretation of how their teacher interpreted the ancient’s interpretation of the suttas, but a teacher who can steer towards the context within which the suttas apply now, ...
You're pointing to yet another bifurcation of opinion - over the necessity of teachers/companions/guides. Since I came to the Dhamma via companionship. and instruction, I actually have no idea how some get started without that. But, clearly, people have different backgrounds, dispositions, and interpretations. When someone tells me to "just read the suttas", I think: "I have read the suttas, and there is a lot there about training and personal instruction...":
As for the person who has neither serenity nor discernment: they should approach someone who has serenity and discernment and ask: ‘Reverend, how should the mind be stilled? How should it be settled? How should it be unified? How should it be immersed in samādhi?’ How should conditions be seen? How should they be comprehended? 4How should they be discerned?’ That person would answer as they’ve seen and known: ...
https://suttacentral.net/an4.94/en/sujato
Now at that time the senior mendicants were advising and instructing the junior mendicants. Some senior mendicants instructed ten mendicants, while some instructed twenty, thirty, or forty. Being instructed by the senior mendicants, the junior mendicants realized a higher distinction than they had before. ...
https://suttacentral.net/mn118/en/sujato
Once they’ve gone forth, they take up the training and livelihood of the mendicants. They give up killing living creatures, renouncing the rod and the sword. They’re scrupulous and kind, living full of compassion for all living beings. ...
https://suttacentral.net/mn27/en/sujato
So, I think I am agreeing with you. My interpretation of the Suttas and Vinaya (and, of couse, relevant ancient and modern commentaries) are that they are a guide to walking the path with companions and teachers and seeing it for myself.

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Re: Beginning with a disrespect towards commentaries

Post by plabit »

SDC wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:34 pm
plabit wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:51 pm
SDC wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:41 pm I used to be a “commentaries aren’t necessary” guy until several members here, along with AK Warder, took me to school on just how invaluable the work of ancient grammarians and scholars is to the translation process.
...But using a text to help define words in an ancient language with a rather limited literature and subjugating yourself to that text as a doctrinal aurhority are two completely different things.
Indeed they are, and anyone who tries that combination is bound not to move. What in my post appears to advocate subjugation? Or are you just speaking generally?
just speaking generally.
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Eko Care
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Re: Beginning with a disrespect towards commentaries

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mikenz66 wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:21 pm So, I would rephrase the conceit more generally as:
They do not identify that their current interpretation of the texts is likely to be imperfect.
Yes. Interpretation matters.
On the Origin of the Buddhist Arthakathás - 1871

R. C. Childers:
About eighteen months ago I was engaged in preparing an edition of Brahmajála Sutta, and of Buddhaghosa's com-mentary upon it which forms the first section of the Sumańgala Vilásiní.
We find here a distinct statement that a commentary on that portion of the Buddhist Canon which contains the Brahmajála was rehearsed, and its text settled, at the First Council; so that, unless some explanation of the passage be found, we must suppose that Buddhaghosa, the Augustine of Buddhist divines, believed that a commentary on Buddha's sermons actually existed during Buddha's lifetime, and that its text was settled immediately after his death.

L. Comrilla Vijasinha:
It must be admitted that the point raised by Mr. Childers is one of grave importance as affecting the credibility of Buddhaghosa and the authenticity of all the commentaries on the Tipitaka. From a missionary point of view, the astounding statement that a commentary on Buddha's discourses existed during his lifetime, and was rehearsed along with those discourses at the First Great Council, appears so improbable and unnatural as at once to justify one in discrediting the testimony; and I doubt not that missionary orientalists will hail the discovery as a valuable addition to their stock of arguments against the genuineness and authenticity of the Buddhist Scriptures. ...

On a careful perusal of the two accounts given by Buddhaghosa of the proceedings of the three famous Councils in the Sumańgala Vilásiní and the Samanta Pásádiká, this view will, I think, be found to be very reasonable. It must be admitted that no actual commentary, in the sense that the westerns attach to that term, and like that which has been handed down to us by Buddhaghosa, existed either in the lifetime of Buddha or immediately after his death.

The reasons adduced by Mr. Childers, apart from others that can easily be added, against such a supposition, are overwhelmingly convincing. But if we suppose that by the word Atthakathá in his preface Buddhaghosa only meant to convey the idea that at the various Councils held for the purpose of collocating the discourses and sayings of Buddha, the meanings to be attached to different terms (-chiefly those that appear to have been borrowed from the Hindu system of ascetic philosophy-) were discussed and properly defined, then the difficulty of conceiving the contemporaneous existence of the commentaries and the Pitakas would be entirely removed. ...

The proceedings of this Council appear to have been conducted in a very orderly and systematic manner, which is the more surprising when we consider that monastic autocracy was about to give place to a form of church government prescribed by the great Founder himself, but which was now to be established and tested for the first time. ...

Now what more easy to conceive, or what more probable, than that they formed the nucleus of matter for the formation of a commentary, and that at the First General Council, which lasted seven months, the elders, who had all seen and heard Buddha, should have discussed them, and decided on the method of interpreting and teaching the more recondite portions of Buddhist philosophy ? ...
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=39811
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Re: Beginning with a disrespect towards commentaries

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SDC wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:56 pm
Eko Care wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:16 pm And Maria Heim is one of the very few scholars ...
It’s the scholar’s motivation that bothers me. Even if they claim to be a practitioner, rarely does their work reflect a personal encounter with the material. Difficult to follow the lead of those who don’t seem to realize that is what is most significant when “mere reason” has taken you just about as far as it can.
I think scholars should be evaluated only with other scholars of the same field. We can't consider them as experienced or trustworthy inside the religion.
Nevertheless, we can observe how a person's understanding differs with the experience or age,
and, how the views differs with the prejudices they have while learning.
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Re: Beginning with a disrespect towards commentaries

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The original OP seems to hint at kammic retribution which is a bit worrying. Other than that... I have never read the official commentaries only contemporary ones. From what I gather they seem to be preoccupied with 'moments', dissecting the Buddha's words with razor blades and giving themselves an esoteric back story to legitimise their authenticity.

If ever a contemporary commentator claims they received their teachings in a high heaven to validate their teachings I'd run a mile (I can think of one). I don't think the visuddhimagga is included in the official commentaries... I've read it... it didn't connect with me... I move on... people can't be bullied into taking on board teachings that don't touch their hearts.

Maybe the suttas have been altered/translated differently over the years but their overriding appeal is that they are predominantly of 'one taste', and (to me at least) come from the one source... the Buddha.

If the commentaries 'float your boat'... go for it, but don't expect everyone to sing from the same hymn sheet.
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mikenz66
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Re: Beginning with a disrespect towards commentaries

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BrokenBones wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:19 pm The original OP seems to hint at kammic retribution which is a bit worrying. Other than that... I have never read the official commentaries only contemporary ones. From what I gather they seem to be preoccupied with 'moments', dissecting the Buddha's words with razor blades and giving themselves an esoteric back story to legitimise their authenticity.
On the other hand, if you read the Visuddhimagga, which gathers together material from various commentators and practitioners, you'll find a lot of practical advice on living a monastic life (it's clearly aimed at monastics, so you won't find much advice about lay life...), sila, and meditation. [There is, admittedly, also some rather technical Abhidhamma discussion in some places.]
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... on2011.pdf
You might find Bhikkhu Sujatos talks Visuddhimagga for Sutta Lovers interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... 9S3ShQVc9R

Or, if you want something smaller, you can read the Commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta here: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... wayof.html

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SDC
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Re: Beginning with a disrespect towards commentaries

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Eko Care wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:33 pm
SDC wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:56 pm
Eko Care wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:16 pm And Maria Heim is one of the very few scholars ...
It’s the scholar’s motivation that bothers me. Even if they claim to be a practitioner, rarely does their work reflect a personal encounter with the material. Difficult to follow the lead of those who don’t seem to realize that is what is most significant when “mere reason” has taken you just about as far as it can.
I think scholars should be evaluated only with other scholars of the same field. We can't consider them as experienced or trustworthy inside the religion.
Nevertheless, we can observe how a person's understanding differs with the experience or age,
and, how the views differs with the prejudices they have while learning.
Evaluation will always be according to a criteria that one finds valuable. As such, anyone who involves themselves in trying understand writings or talks about the Dhamma, with the intent of using them to develop freedom from suffering, should evaluate a writer/speaker on the basis of whether or not their instructions are personally effective towards that end. There are many powerful and sometime painful things to set upon in this training, and if a writer/speaker isn’t encouraging you to put yourself in the midst of those, it could be a sign that the intent of their work is not aligned with your intention to develop freedom from suffering. Caution is a prerequisite. The scholar should be valued for the work they do, but that often has no place in the challenging forefront of what must be done to make strides in wearing away of the defilements.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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retrofuturist
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Re: Beginning with a disrespect towards commentaries

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Greetings Mike,

If you read BrokenBones' post, you will see (I assume) he has already read the Visuddhimagga... and didn't experience any connection with it, since its pedantry, fixation on moments and the like lacks the "one taste" (presumably of freedom), found in the Suttas.

On another hand, I find it curious that you're saying how the advice to "read the Suttas" doesn't resonate with you because you require human interaction and cannot imagine how anyone would learn the Dhamma without it etc. yet you're encouraging another member to read books about books he didn't like.

Curious, to say the least.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Beginning with a disrespect towards commentaries

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retrofuturist wrote:
.. (I assume) he has already read the Visuddhimagga... and didn't experience any connection with it, since its pedantry, fixation on moments and the like lacks the "one taste" (presumably of freedom), found in the Suttas.
The whole Dhamma is considered having a "one (and only one) taste".
  • This "one taste" is not about any "taste or happiness we feel while reading".
  • This "one taste" is not about any "aggreeable feeling we(our views) feel while reading".
"One taste" is about "the taste of liberation from the world"
where the word "taste" is generally interpreted as "task".

Therefore it is the "task of liberating" one from this dukkha world.

If someone interpreted the meaning of the word "taste"
  • as something we taste
  • or as the free/aggreeable taste we can feel while reading
I don't know what the result will be.

This is the problem of misleading interpretations
by the modern people who haven't read the classical interpretation
handed down by the ancient Sangha.
_________________________________________________________________
Do you think the ancient Sangha as the enemies of you?
Did they have any need to make the things complicated for modern people?
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Re: Beginning with a disrespect towards commentaries

Post by plabit »

Eko Care wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:26 pm
retrofuturist wrote:
.. (I assume) he has already read the Visuddhimagga... and didn't experience any connection with it, since its pedantry, fixation on moments and the like lacks the "one taste" (presumably of freedom), found in the Suttas.
The whole Dhamma is considered having a "one (and only one) taste".
  • This "one taste" is not about any "taste or happiness we feel while reading".
  • This "one taste" is not about any "aggreeable feeling we(our views) feel while reading".
"One taste" is about "the taste of liberation from the world"
where the word "taste" is generally interpreted as "task".
Taste seems more to mean direction or trajectory than task.

The idea is if its real dharma it leads toward renunciation, letting go of craving, etc.

But saying there is no free will or there is thought but no mind or action but nobody who owns the action (where the suttas even say the opposite, i.e. you own your action), leads in the opposite direction, i.e. towards moral laziness and indulgence, and is therefore adharma.
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Re: Beginning with a disrespect towards commentaries

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:49 pm Greetings Mike,

If you read BrokenBones' post, you will see (I assume) he has already read the Visuddhimagga... and didn't experience any connection with it, since its pedantry, fixation on moments and the like lacks the "one taste" (presumably of freedom), found in the Suttas.
Well, I took his post on face value:
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:19 pm ... I have never read the official commentaries only contemporary ones. From what I gather they seem to be preoccupied with 'moments', dissecting the Buddha's words with razor blades and giving themselves an esoteric back story to legitimise their authenticity. ...
retrofuturist wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:49 pm On another hand, I find it curious that you're saying how the advice to "read the Suttas" doesn't resonate with you because you require human interaction and cannot imagine how anyone would learn the Dhamma without it etc.
No, what I am saying is that I have no experience with making a start on the Path by "just reading the suttas", without a practice community and/or various advice from books, talks, and so on. So I don't have any real understanding of how I might have "just read the suttas", since that's not the route I took, and I can't wipe my mind of my past conditioning to experiment with another approach. Due to my conditioning, when I read the Suttas, Vinaya, and Commentaries, I naturally notice how the Buddha talks about community, teachers, admonishment, and so on, as I pointed out above.

However, I do acknowledge that some members, such as yourself, are advocates for a "just read the suttas" approach, so I presume it is possible to have some success with that, though I'd be interested to know if anyone has actually done this in a completely "pure" form, without ever reading any explanatory material outside of Sutta and Vinaya translations.
retrofuturist wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:49 pm yet you're encouraging another member to read books about books he didn't like.
See above. My reading of the post was that he had not read it. Apologies if I misinterpreted the words.
retrofuturist wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:49 pm Curious, to say the least.
Not really. With different conditioning, people see things differently. That's why we see disagreement on some aspects of Dhamma on Forums such as this.

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Re: Beginning with a disrespect towards commentaries

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Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:00 am My reading of the post was that he had not read it. Apologies if I misinterpreted the words.
No need to apologize and I'm sure BrokenBones is cool enough to not require one either. You were clearly acting in good faith.
BrokenBones wrote:I don't think the visuddhimagga is included in the official commentaries... I've read it... it didn't connect with me... I move on...
Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Beginning with a disrespect towards commentaries

Post by BrokenBones »

retrofuturist wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:30 am Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:00 am My reading of the post was that he had not read it. Apologies if I misinterpreted the words.
No need to apologize and I'm sure BrokenBones is cool enough to not require one either. You were clearly acting in good faith.
BrokenBones wrote:I don't think the visuddhimagga is included in the official commentaries... I've read it... it didn't connect with me... I move on...
Metta,
Paul. :)
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