Beginning with a disrespect towards commentaries

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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mikenz66
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Re: Beginning with a disrespect towards commentaries

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:30 am Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:00 am My reading of the post was that he had not read it. Apologies if I misinterpreted the words.
No need to apologize and I'm sure BrokenBones is cool enough to not require one either. You were clearly acting in good faith.
BrokenBones wrote:I don't think the visuddhimagga is included in the official commentaries... I've read it... it didn't connect with me... I move on...
Metta,
Paul. :)
OK, I missed that. I focused on him saying that he had not read any Commentaries. Yes, the Visuddhimagga is not a Canonical Commentary, i.e. it is not in the Tipiṭaka. It is post-Canonical, as is the much later Abhidhammatthasangaha, Comprehensive Manual of the Abhidhamma, and more recent commentaries... However, since it was written by Buddhaghosa while he was translating the Canonical Commentaries, and contains many quotes from the Commentaries, it's almost certainly contains the majority of the Canonical Commentary that is readily available to those who are not Pali experts.

Going back to the OP, and perhaps taking a slightly different tack, it is perhaps relevant that some of the prominent monastic teachers, notably Vens. Thanissaro and Amaro, have stated in various talks (sorry, I did not keep the references) that they didn't do much sutta study when they were training in Thailand with their respective teachers (Ajahns Fuang and Chah). When they returned to the West, some of their well-read Western students asked them questions about Buddhist texts, and how what they were teaching was related to the texts. So they were forced to do some reading to answer those questions. This is not necessarily a negative thing. They brought back from Thailand wisdom gained from their training. However, the explanations of suttas are their own. Perhaps this goes some way towards explaining the wide diversity of interpretations in the West.

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Mike
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DooDoot
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Re: Beginning with a disrespect towards commentaries

Post by DooDoot »

mikenz66 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:34 am However, the explanations of suttas are their own. Perhaps this goes some way towards explaining the wide diversity of interpretations in the West.
diversity of interpretations does not arise from Self but from ignorance or lack of proper study. the Buddha said his Dhamma was straightforward and well-spoken. possibly folks don't study enough in the proper way
mikenz66 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:34 amwell-read Western students asked them questions about Buddhist texts
sounds like an oxymoron. the Buddha said his Dhamma was straightforward and well-spoken. possibly folks didn't read carefully enough. for example, if i had Venerable Thanissaro's email address, i would send him some of the results of my studies rather than ask him questions
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Mudita1
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Re: Beginning with a disrespect towards commentaries

Post by Mudita1 »

Beginning with something wrong isn't means we end up wrong. Thus the more worrying part is we ending up wrong. WE all started at some point of time, not knowing what is right, what is wrong, confuse with what is true and what is false.

However, I believe someone come across true Buddha teaching because of his/her kamma - the time is right, just like a ripen fruit. And, for the rest they are searching, searching need time and effort and I won't say that is wrong but they need more time.

Sariputta was from external sect for long before he has chance listening to Buddha teaching, told by Ven. Assaji.

Reference:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el090.html

Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu
Dhammavamsa
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Re: Beginning with a disrespect towards commentaries

Post by Dhammavamsa »

Greetings all.

Sorry to butt in but I am quite interested in this topic. For me, I have only read Visuddhimagga and Vimuttimagga (briefly) for commentaries. For suttas, I am done with Majjhima Nikaya readings and now working through Anguttara Nikaya.

Commentaries are never a big issue for me since they just act like a supplementary to this main course - the Sutta Pitaka. Just like any modern gurus or Theravadin monks' books on Buddhism.

Whenever I found things in the commentaries that are not found the teachings in Suttas, I just put aside.

As I read Visuddhimagga, I think many things in the book can go along well with the Suttas so far.
Example: Ven.Buddhaghosa wrote that the Buddhanussati method can lead to Upacara samadhi only and penetrate no further etc. I believe this is why in Mahasatipatthana sutta did not mention the Buddhanussati.
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DooDoot
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Re: Beginning with a disrespect towards commentaries

Post by DooDoot »

Dhammavamsa wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 4:45 pm I believe this is why in Mahasatipatthana sutta did not mention the Buddhanussati.
Mahasatipatthana is for seeing the five aggregates as merely the five aggregates, i.e., for seeing the five aggregates are not-self

if there is lack of wisdom, Buddhanussati may result in seeing the Buddha as a self or person, similar to Vakkali, Yamaka, etc
Enough, Vakkali! What is there to see in this vile body? He who sees Dhamma, Vakkali, sees me; he who sees me sees Dhamma. Truly seeing Dhamma, one sees me; seeing me one sees Dhamma.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Dhammavamsa
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Re: Beginning with a disrespect towards commentaries

Post by Dhammavamsa »

Eko Care wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:22 pm When a beginner enters to Buddhism,
there are many Gurus eagerly waiting,
to wash their brain in a subtle way.

And if any newbie begins learning,
through a particular teacher of the modern western world,
he would most probably be injected,
some of the odd views,
along with good Sutta explanations.

Either by personal views of these teachers,
or by chronological approaches of them,
the beginner will have been fed,
a subtle disrespect towards commentaries.

With this disrespect,
the beginner will not learn,
the value of the commentaries,
and valuable interpretations in them,
at least to a considerable degree.

His mind may argue that
"I'm not going to place any later material over the Buddha's own words",
yes! it is correct,
nevertheless,
he will not be able to identify that
the interpretation of the text,
he is currently using,
is more later than the Commentary.

By thinking in a modern interpretation,
and by disrespecting early Sangha,
either he will end up with views,
or he commit demerit at least,
which will contribute again,
towards a net of views.
:goodpost:
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Spiny Norman
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Re: Beginning with a disrespect towards commentaries

Post by Spiny Norman »

I've always viewed the suttas as the primary source. Commentaries both modern and ancient can be helpful of course.
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Eko Care
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Re: Beginning with a disrespect towards commentaries

Post by Eko Care »

Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:52 pm I've always viewed the suttas as the primary source. Commentaries both modern and ancient can be helpful of course.
Closely similar to KR Norman. :smile:
Is he spiny as well?
KR Norman wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:52 pmPali Literature:
Buddhaghosa attributes to the theras all the udana verses, noting of repetitions, etc., which exist in the canon. There are in commentaries by Buddhaghosa and others not infrequently statements that a portion of the text is due to the sangltikaras, and it is probable that these ascriptions are taken over from the earlier Sihala atthakathas. Although there is no reason to doubt that these portions are indeed later additions to the canon, and were made by sangitikaras, there is no certainty that they were added at the time of the first council.
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