Sallatha Sutta SN 36.6 - The Arrow (or dart, thorn)

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Assaji
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Re: Sallatha Sutta SN 36.6 - The Arrow (or dart, thorn)

Post by Assaji »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:54 am The sutta makes a distinction between the raw vedana and the emotional reaction (caitasika). Seeing as how contact still happens at the mind, vedana will still be experienced in relation to mental contacts. What is different for the Arahant is the absence of the caitasika reaction, not the absence of painful mental contacts. It seems your Mahayana-Abhidharma is flawed, or is working from a different text. It does not “accord with the Pali texts”.
If you are interested in how this Adhidharmasamuccaya explanation accords with the Pāli texts, and with the Mahasatipatthana Sutta in particular - you can study the thread: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=13998
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Re: Sallatha Sutta SN 36.6 - The Arrow (or dart, thorn)

Post by Ceisiwr »

form wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:50 am

What you have proposed is something like first contact - feeling then stop there at the primordial perception. No mental proliferation.
:goodpost:

:anjali:
“When serenity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Lust is abandoned.”

“When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Wisdom is developed. And when wisdom is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned."


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mjaviem
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Re: Sallatha Sutta SN 36.6 - The Arrow (or dart, thorn)

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chownah wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:04 am ...
if you don't mind can you tell me what text you searched for in google that found it?.....this may help me to be a better searcher....

By the way, your link isn't working for me....here is an accesstoinsight link to mn44 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html in case others have a problem too.
...
The link is working. Perhaps it was an issue with Suttacentral? I think I was lucky. I searched like this:
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Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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frank k
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Re: Sallatha Sutta SN 36.6 - The Arrow (or dart, thorn)

Post by frank k »

asahi wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:17 am What is the first arrow if i may ask ? Is it the pleasant feeling , painful feeling and neutral feeling of physical body only or plus the other 4 sense fields ? If it include the sixth , the first arrow would thus include the second arrow according to the similes .
Exactly.
All you confused abhidhammikas should read the sutta again. A few times even. Carefully.
It doesn't make sense to contrast physical body against mind if the physical body is also inclusive of mind.
And if kaya is inclusive of mind, then this sutta wouldn't work because Arahants do experience physical pain and it hurts just like it does for you.
(according to Abhidhammikas the arahant wouldn't suffer from the first arrow either).
Then why are there suttas where arahants contract fatal debilitating conditions with unbearable pain and they commit suicide?

Really what this whole thing about is grooming. Cult leaders trying to groom impressionable followers so that they can then have the license to redefine
basic words like body, thinking, into whatever opposite meaning they want, in whatever sutta they want, and gullible followers just nod and agree.

Even intelligent people like @mikenz start believing these redefinitions.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
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Re: Sallatha Sutta SN 36.6 - The Arrow (or dart, thorn)

Post by ToVincent »

Physiologically, emotion is linked with the stiring up of the nervous system.
The process ends up in the limbic system, and prefrontal cortex - where (through the feeding of neurotransmitters/neurochemicals), one feels a pleasant, unpleasant, (or neither pleasant or unpleasant) mental state.
Emotion leads to mental state.
Let's not put the cart before the horse.

Please,refer to this sketch — which represents the logical flow in the suttas with parallels:
https://justpaste.it/img/62c4c6b65f2a5b ... 710f2f.png

Phasso is not really "contact". It is not yet the appropriation (upādana) of a feeling (as "mine") - but just the transference of the external field of sensory experience to satta. It takes place when the external sensory knowledge (sense- consciousness) falls to the lot of satta.

Sense-consciousness is what we have first hand knowledge with the upādāyarūpa (e. g. tree).
When one hits a tree, one's body (kāya), hits it with the sense of touch (phoṭṭhabba).
Bang ! (stiring up of the nervous system"
That would be the first "touch" - (and it would be more proper to delineate that particular "touching" knowledge, as "contact").
Note that phoṭṭhabba and phassa come from the same root √ spṛś.
It means to "touch" (phoṭṭhabba), as well as to "convey to", "come upon" , to "fall to the lot of", and even "to afflict".
"Transference" seems to be the best single word that describe this process.
When one hits a tree, the sense-consciousness of that "touch" (phoṭṭhabba) is conveyed to", "comes upon", "falls to the lot of", and "afflicts" satta (of which kāya is the internal sensorial part).
Ouch! (emotion)

Then comes the feeling, or more properly stated, the felt knowledge (vedanā/vid) of this experience.
Gee, that hurts! - this is unpleasant!

One evidently doesn't acquiesce/agree (sañña*) with that (unless he needs to consult).
Damn it!
We wouldn't need to have a "concept" (sañña) about that, would we?

Then one thinks (vitakka):
"This is so painful - This is so unpleasant".
(Lament, cry, etc.).

"I wish I could be in a pleasant state" (manosañcetana).

This is where SA 470 (the parallel to SN 36.6) adds that - because of this wish (manosañcetana) - the citta gets the second arrow.

________________________

Having a citta well established in the four ways to attain sati (satipaṭṭhānā), will prevent all that.
.
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Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
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Those who desire good are few, and those who desire evil are many.
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(And you just can't imagine how much goodness, those who desire evil, are ready to display - ToVincent).
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Re: Sallatha Sutta SN 36.6 - The Arrow (or dart, thorn)

Post by asahi »

Dhammanando wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:05 pm The scope of what's comprehended under the first arrow cannot be limited to kāyasamphassajā vedanā alone, for feelings of this type are only sukha or dukkha, yet the sutta's account of the first arrow speaks also of adukkhamasukhā vedanā. This suggests that the said feelings may also be cakkhusamphassajā, sotasamphassajā, ghānasamphassajā or jivhāsamphassajā (which are always neutral), and manosamphassajā, which may be somanassa, domanassa or neutral.
I read again several times , i think it is incorrect to say physical body contact doesnt include neutral feeling .
The feelings arises out of five sense fields are the first arrow , thus (feelings of the 5 sense fields) being the mind objects , they becomes the second arrow only if one grieves on them .
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Re: Sallatha Sutta SN 36.6 - The Arrow (or dart, thorn)

Post by pegembara »

"When an untaught worldling is touched by a painful (bodily) feeling, he worries and grieves, he laments, beats his breast, weeps and is distraught. He thus experiences two kinds of feelings, a bodily and a mental feeling. It is as if a man were pierced by a dart and, following the first piercing, he is hit by a second dart. So that person will experience feelings caused by two darts. It is similar with an untaught worldling: when touched by a painful (bodily) feeling, he worries and grieves, he laments, beats his breast, weeps and is distraught. So he experiences two kinds of feeling: a bodily and a mental feeling.

"But in the case of a well-taught noble disciple, O monks, when he is touched by a painful feeling, he will not worry nor grieve and lament, he will not beat his breast and weep, nor will he be distraught. It is one kind of feeling he experiences, a bodily one, but not a mental feeling. It is as if a man were pierced by a dart, but was not hit by a second dart following the first one. So this person experiences feelings caused by a single dart only. It is similar with a well-taught noble disciple: when touched by a painful feeling, he will no worry nor grieve and lament, he will not beat his breast and weep, nor will he be distraught. He experiences one single feeling, a bodily one.
The first component is physiological ie. the pain, the rise in BP, racing heartbeat, sweating, rapid breathing, the reflex withdrawing from the pain and discomfort.

The second is the mental reaction to the physical component - the why me? what is my future? what about my family/friends? this is just awful!

An ordinary person would be willing to go to great bodily pains just to prolong their lives. The mental reaction to the terminal illness makes them subject their bodies to torture. Or even take their own lives even if some hopeful treatment is available.

Without the mental component, the problems are "easier" to solve. And that means also not accept treatment that needlessly prolongs life.
the serenity to accept the things that cannot change, courage to change the things that can, and wisdom to know the difference
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Sallatha Sutta SN 36.6 - The Arrow (or dart, thorn)

Post by Dhammanando »

asahi wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:38 am I read again several times , i think it is incorrect to say physical body contact doesnt include neutral feeling.
It's correct according to the Abhidhamma. To quote Nārada Thera:
Of all the 89 types of consciousness only two are associated with either sukha or dukkha. One is the body-consciousness associated with pleasure, and the other is body-consciousness associated with pain.

Both these are the resultant types of consciousness, effects of good and evil kamma.

A soft touch, for instance, yields pleasure. A pinprick, on the contrary, yields pain. In these cases one experiences the aforesaid two types of consciousness respectively.

Now a question arises - Why only the body-consciousness is associated with pleasure and pain? Why not the other sense-impressions?

Mr. Aung provides an answer in his introductory essay to the Compendium: -

"The sense of touch alone is accompanied by the positive hedonic elements of pain and pleasure; the other four senses are accompanied by hedonic indifference. This exceptional distinction is assigned to the sense of touch, because the impact between the sentient surface (pāsāda rūpa) and the respective objects of other senses, both sets of which are secondary qualities of body, is not strong enough to produce physical pain or pleasure. But in the case of touch there is contact with one or other, or all the three primary qualities (solidity - pathavi, temperature - tejo, pressure - vāyo) and this is strong enough to affect those primary qualities in the percipient's own body. Just as cotton wool on the anvil does not affect the latter, but a hammer striking cotton wool imparts its check to the anvil also.'' -- (Compendium of Philosophy p. 14).

In the case of touch the impact is strong. The "essentials", pathavi, tejo and vāyo (extension, heat, and motion) - āpo, cohesion, is excluded being intangible - forcibly and directly strike against the great elements of the body. Consequently there is either pain or happiness. In the case of seeing, hearing, smelling, and tasting, there is a bare impact. The consequent feeling is neither pain nor happiness.

Although these sense-impressions may be sukha, dukkha, or upekkhā the javana thought processes conditioned thereby may not necessarily be associated with a similar feeling.

For instance, the Buddha experienced a body-consciousness associated with pain when a rock splinter struck His foot, but His javana thought-process conditioned thereby would not necessarily be associate with displeasure. Unaffected by the pain, He would have experienced perfect equanimity. The immanent feeling in the stream of consciousness would have been upekkhā.

Similarly at the sight of the Buddha, a right-understanding person would automatically experience an eye-consciousness associated with indifference (upekkhā-sahagata cakkhu-viññāna) but his javana thought would be moral. The innate feeling would be pleasure (somanassa).
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
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Re: Sallatha Sutta SN 36.6 - The Arrow (or dart, thorn)

Post by asahi »

Dhammanando wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:38 am
"The sense of touch alone is accompanied by the positive hedonic elements of pain and pleasure; the other four senses are accompanied by hedonic indifference. This exceptional distinction is assigned to the sense of touch, because the impact between the sentient surface (pāsāda rūpa) and the respective objects of other senses, both sets of which are secondary qualities of body, is not strong enough to produce physical pain or pleasure. But in the case of touch there is contact with one or other, or all the three primary qualities (solidity - pathavi, temperature - tejo, pressure - vāyo) and this is strong enough to affect those primary qualities in the percipient's own body. Just as cotton wool on the anvil does not affect the latter, but a hammer striking cotton wool imparts its check to the anvil also.'' -- (Compendium of Philosophy p. 14).

In the case of touch the impact is strong. The "essentials", pathavi, tejo and vāyo (extension, heat, and motion) - āpo, cohesion, is excluded being intangible - forcibly and directly strike against the great elements of the body. Consequently there is either pain or happiness. In the case of seeing, hearing, smelling, and tasting, there is a bare impact. The consequent feeling is neither pain nor happiness.
in terms of body consciousness , imagine the bare impact when the body skin being affected by normal temperature " air " , it does not give rise to a feeling of pleasure or pain . Just like the other four type of consciousness .
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sallatha Sutta SN 36.6 - The Arrow (or dart, thorn)

Post by Ceisiwr »

asahi wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:38 am
I read again several times , i think it is incorrect to say physical body contact doesnt include neutral feeling .
The feelings arises out of five sense fields are the first arrow , thus (feelings of the 5 sense fields) being the mind objects , they becomes the second arrow only if one grieves on them .
6 senses means 6 contacts which in turn means 3 types of vedana constantly rising and falling at each sense base. Mind + mental objects + attention = contact and so 3 types of vedana at the mind base separate from vedana based on physical contact, sound etc. Your post should say:

“the feelings arises [sic] out of the six sense fields are the first arrow”
“When serenity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Lust is abandoned.”

“When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Wisdom is developed. And when wisdom is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned."


AN 2.31
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Re: Sallatha Sutta SN 36.6 - The Arrow (or dart, thorn)

Post by Dhammanando »

asahi wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:37 am in terms of body consciousness , imagine the bare impact when the body skin being affected by normal temperature " air " , it does not give rise to a feeling of pleasure or pain . Just like the other four type of consciousness .
If the temperature is the same as your body's there'll be no feeling, not neutral feeling. If it goes up or down slightly the feeling is likely to be pleasant. If it goes up and down considerably the feeling will be painful. At no point is it adukkhamasukha.
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
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Re: Sallatha Sutta SN 36.6 - The Arrow (or dart, thorn)

Post by asahi »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:08 pm
6 senses means 6 contacts which in turn means 3 types of vedana constantly rising and falling at each sense base. Mind + mental objects + attention = contact and so 3 types of vedana at the mind base separate from vedana based on physical contact, sound etc. Your post should say:

“the feelings arises [sic] out of the six sense fields are the first arrow”
The feelings out of the contacts via the five sense fields becomes the primary phase objects of the mind . The feelings arises out of the contacts via mental objects such as feelings perception intention would then becomes the secondary phase feelings .
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Re: Sallatha Sutta SN 36.6 - The Arrow (or dart, thorn)

Post by Ceisiwr »

asahi wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:11 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:08 pm
6 senses means 6 contacts which in turn means 3 types of vedana constantly rising and falling at each sense base. Mind + mental objects + attention = contact and so 3 types of vedana at the mind base separate from vedana based on physical contact, sound etc. Your post should say:

“the feelings arises [sic] out of the six sense fields are the first arrow”
The feelings of the five sense fields becomes the primary phase objects of the mind . The feelings arises out of mental objects such as feelings perception intention would then becomes the secondary phase .
That is not what the sutta is saying. There can be vedana based on mind contact that has nothing to do with the 5 senses. That would be the 1st dart there (if painful).

Right now I’m thinking of a rotting corpse. This is not based on vision, sound, hearing, touch or smell yet there is contact and unpleasant vedana.
“When serenity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Lust is abandoned.”

“When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Wisdom is developed. And when wisdom is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned."


AN 2.31
asahi
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Re: Sallatha Sutta SN 36.6 - The Arrow (or dart, thorn)

Post by asahi »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:14 pm
asahi wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:11 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:08 pm
6 senses means 6 contacts which in turn means 3 types of vedana constantly rising and falling at each sense base. Mind + mental objects + attention = contact and so 3 types of vedana at the mind base separate from vedana based on physical contact, sound etc. Your post should say:

“the feelings arises [sic] out of the six sense fields are the first arrow”
The feelings of the five sense fields becomes the primary phase objects of the mind . The feelings arises out of mental objects such as feelings perception intention would then becomes the secondary phase .
That is not what the sutta is saying. There can be vedana based on mind contact that has nothing to do with the 5 senses. That would be the 1st dart there (if painful).

Right now I’m thinking of a rotting corpse. This is not based on vision, sound, hearing, touch or smell yet there is contact and unpleasant vedana.
When you are thinking of rotting corpse that involves perception volition which entering into secondary phase already .
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Re: Sallatha Sutta SN 36.6 - The Arrow (or dart, thorn)

Post by Ceisiwr »

asahi wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:33 pm
When you are thinking of rotting corpse that involves perception volition which entering into secondary phase already .
This makes no sense even on your own interpretation. Based on your interpretation I can’t have any idea of a rotting corpse outside of the 5 senses, nor any unpleasant vedana, since on your model all ideas and mental vedana are based solely on the physical sensations. This makes absolutely no sense, even from a non-Dhamma point of view. Even a non-Buddhist recognises that there can be ideas not based on the 5 senses which are painful.
“When serenity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Lust is abandoned.”

“When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Wisdom is developed. And when wisdom is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned."


AN 2.31
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