Sallatha Sutta SN 36.6 - The Arrow (or dart, thorn)

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asahi
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Re: Sallatha Sutta SN 36.6 - The Arrow (or dart, thorn)

Post by asahi »

What is the first arrow if i may ask ? Is it the pleasant feeling , painful feeling and neutral feeling of physical body only or plus the other 4 sense fields ? If it include the sixth , the first arrow would thus include the second arrow according to the similes .
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sallatha Sutta SN 36.6 - The Arrow (or dart, thorn)

Post by Ceisiwr »

asahi wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:17 am What is the first arrow if i may ask ? Is it the pleasant feeling , painful feeling and neutral feeling of physical body only or plus the other 4 sense fields ? If it include the sixth , the first arrow would thus include the second arrow according to the similes .
No because there is a distinction between painful vedana and the emotional reaction. Contact between mind and mental dhamma would also lead to vedana even for the Buddha and Arahants, just the same as contact at the ear or body would. What is different for them is that this does not become the basis for lamentation etc. Even after awakening the Buddha’s senses still function in daily life. Contact at all 6 senses will be the basis for vedana. Only at final Nibbana can contact and all vedana cease without remainder.

When the Buddha’s son died this would have been a painful experience for the Buddha (1st arrow), but he would not enter into sorrow, grief, depression etc on account of that (2nd arrow).
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
asahi
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Re: Sallatha Sutta SN 36.6 - The Arrow (or dart, thorn)

Post by asahi »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:36 am
asahi wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:17 am What is the first arrow if i may ask ? Is it the pleasant feeling , painful feeling and neutral feeling of physical body only or plus the other 4 sense fields ? If it include the sixth , the first arrow would thus include the second arrow according to the similes .
No because there is a distinction between painful vedana and the emotional reaction. Contact between mind and mental dhamma can also lead to vedana even for the Buddha and Arahants, just the same as contact at the ear or body can. What is different for them is that this does not become the basis for lamentation etc. Even after awakening the Buddha’s senses still function in daily life. Contact at all 6 senses will be the basis for vedana. Only at final Nibbana can those cease without remainder.

When the Buddha’s son died this would have been a painful experience for the Buddha (1st arrow), but he would not enter into sorrow, grief, depression etc on account of that.
The 1st arrow in the similes of the sutta does refers to neutral feelings , or no ? But how would neutral feeling be taken as dukkha ?
When the Buddha's son died this should not have been a painful experience for the Buddha (ie 1st arrow), because it is just an experience of His son five aggregates break-ups . If there is no 1st arrow in the first place then certainly no 2nd arrow arises in the picture .
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sallatha Sutta SN 36.6 - The Arrow (or dart, thorn)

Post by Ceisiwr »

asahi wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:47 am
The 1st arrow in the similes of the sutta does refers to neutral feelings , or no ? But how would neutral feeling be taken as dukkha ?
When the Buddha's son died this should not have been a painful experience for the Buddha (ie 1st arrow), because it is just an experience of His son five aggregates break-ups . If there is no 1st arrow in the first place then certainly no 2nd arrow arises in the picture .
I think you are confusing vedana with grief etc. If I bash my leg the painful vedana is different to the anger. The only way to escape painful feelings completely is at final Nibbana. Whilst alive and walking around talking to people there will be contact at all 6 senses and so vedana of all types. If the Buddha sees something unpleasant, hears something unpleasant, physical touches something unpleasant then there will be painful vedana. Since contact has not stopped at the mind the same for contact there. There will be pleasant and unpleasant thoughts etc. Seeing his son dead would have been a painful experience, but he would not enter into sorrow or lamentation on the basis of that because he sees correctly in terms of anicca, dukkha, anatta, 5 aggregates etc. In short, the 1st dart only ceases without remainder at the end of life for the Buddha and Arahants. The 2nd dart at awakening during life.

Regarding the other question, all vedana is dukkha. Neutral vedana is inherently dukkha as its unsatisfactory. It changes and falls away.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Sallatha Sutta SN 36.6 - The Arrow (or dart, thorn)

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asahi wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:47 am But how would neutral feeling be taken as dukkha ?
There is a sutta which I looked for but couldn't find which talks about feelings that are neither pleasant nor unpleasant and what happens when they arise in ignorance or in the absence of ignorance.....my memory is that in the absence of ignorance they are/become pleasant feelings and in ignorance they are/become unpleasant feelings.

I'm hoping that someone who knows the sutta will bring the link....there is a topic somewhere here which discusses this and maybe someone can remember where it is.
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Re: Sallatha Sutta SN 36.6 - The Arrow (or dart, thorn)

Post by frank k »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:39 pm ...
Not that you have shown. A strength of the other interpretation is that it accounts for any painful mental dhammas the Buddha or Arahants would have/do experienced/experience. A purely physical reading lacks that explanatory power, thus being rather unsatisfactory.
...
Sounds circular. We also know that “kaya” can mean a range of different things depending on the context. A simple reading would be, well, simple.

Actually, I've shown it very clearly, very succinctly.
And you misquote me from two separate messages building a straw man and pretending I didn't demonstrate my case clearly,
then accuse me of the very fallacies you commit.

Hard to tell if you genuinely believe your own convoluted fallacious reasoning or you're just posturing to try to make it look like you're winning an argument.

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Re: Sallatha Sutta SN 36.6 - The Arrow (or dart, thorn)

Post by mjaviem »

chownah wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:45 am ... the arising of suffering can spawn the arising of further suffering....
I think there's only suffering with the second arrow. With the first arrow can only come the painful feeling (and the other unsatisfactory feelings as well) but not suffering. I don't think an Arahant suffers while waiting for his death to absolutely get rid of it.
chownah wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:13 pm
asahi wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:47 am But how would neutral feeling be taken as dukkha ?
There is a sutta which I looked for but couldn't find which talks about feelings that are neither pleasant nor unpleasant and what happens when they arise in ignorance or in the absence of ignorance.....my memory is that in the absence of ignorance they are/become pleasant feelings and in ignorance they are/become unpleasant feelings.

I'm hoping that someone who knows the sutta will bring the link....there is a topic somewhere here which discusses this and maybe someone can remember where it is.
chownah
I googled it and think you are referring to MN44 but I'm just pointing this out, I never read it.
... Neutral feeling is pleasant when there is knowledge, and painful when there is ignorance...
... adukkhamasukhā vedanā ñāṇasukhā aññāṇadukkhā”ti...
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
chownah
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Re: Sallatha Sutta SN 36.6 - The Arrow (or dart, thorn)

Post by chownah »

mjaviem wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:04 pm
chownah wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:45 am ... the arising of suffering can spawn the arising of further suffering....
I think there's only suffering with the second arrow. With the first arrow can only come the painful feeling (and the other unsatisfactory feelings as well) but not suffering. I don't think an Arahant suffers while waiting for his death to absolutely get rid of it.
chownah wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:13 pm
asahi wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:47 am But how would neutral feeling be taken as dukkha ?
There is a sutta which I looked for but couldn't find which talks about feelings that are neither pleasant nor unpleasant and what happens when they arise in ignorance or in the absence of ignorance.....my memory is that in the absence of ignorance they are/become pleasant feelings and in ignorance they are/become unpleasant feelings.

I'm hoping that someone who knows the sutta will bring the link....there is a topic somewhere here which discusses this and maybe someone can remember where it is.
chownah
I googled it and think you are referring to MN44 but I'm just pointing this out, I never read it.
... Neutral feeling is pleasant when there is knowledge, and painful when there is ignorance...
... adukkhamasukhā vedanā ñāṇasukhā aññāṇadukkhā”ti...
Thank you for your time and efforts to find and bring the sutta I asked about.

I like your view that there is suffering only with the second arrow....I guess my comments about suffering bringing about further suffering is not quite accurate in this context so I guess that sentence should either be ignored or perhaps altered somehow.....

I'm studying MN44 again as there is a lot to be seen there. Thanks again for bringing it....if you don't mind can you tell me what text you searched for in google that found it?.....this may help me to be a better searcher....

By the way, your link isn't working for me....here is an accesstoinsight link to mn44 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html in case others have a problem too.

I hope that MN44 helps to answer asahi's question about how to consider neutral feelings.
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Re: Sallatha Sutta SN 36.6 - The Arrow (or dart, thorn)

Post by asahi »

chownah wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:04 am [https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

I hope that MN44 helps to answer asahi's question about how to consider neutral feelings.
chownah

Thanks chownah n mjaview for the link .
According to the note in the link , there is a mistake to say that passion-obsession abandon at first jhana since the anagami still have form n formless passion .

And the resistance-obsession get abandon on attaining non-returning, the mind has no further resistance-obsession with painful feeling. However , it seems an arahant still feel aversion towards painful feeling (vedana) , ie thats what the suttas saids about arahant took the knives ended their own lives due to severe painful feelings .

As for the neutral feeling (ie neither pleasant nor painful) ,
☆[by enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. With that he abandons ignorance. No ignorance-obsession gets obsessed there☆],
arent the other ascetics with 4th jhana can be said attaining the same state of ariya also !



"No... There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With that he abandons passion. No passion-obsession gets obsessed there.[4] There is the case where a monk considers, 'O when will I enter & remain in the dimension that those who are noble now enter & remain in?' And as he thus nurses this yearning for the unexcelled liberations, there arises within him sorrow based on that yearning. With that he abandons resistance. No resistance-obsession gets obsessed there.[5] There is the case where a monk, with the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. With that he abandons ignorance. No ignorance-obsession gets obsessed there."
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Re: Sallatha Sutta SN 36.6 - The Arrow (or dart, thorn)

Post by form »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:08 pm It’s not “physical feelings and mental feelings”. It’s more “experiential feelings” (kayika vedana) and “emotional reaction/feeling” (cetasika vedana). There are 6 senses in the Dhamma, not 5. To give an example a bad memory can be kayika vedana which, for an average person, leads to sorrow, lamentation etc (cetasika vedana). For the Buddha and Arahants they can still have the bad memory, and so the raw experience (kayika vedana) but they do not experience the emotional reaction through sorrow etc, the cetasika vedana.

Regarding your question, in very simple terms:

Appeal of pleasant vedana is that it is pleasant when remaining.

Drawback is that it changes and falls away, and so can be a condition for sorrow, annoyance etc

Escape means letting go. Detaching from it. Not craving or holding it.
So it is first impression feeling and after that no more?
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Assaji
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Re: Sallatha Sutta SN 36.6 - The Arrow (or dart, thorn)

Post by Assaji »

Dear Bhante,
Dhammanando wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:05 pm The scope of what's comprehended under the first arrow cannot be limited to kāyasamphassajā vedanā alone, for feelings of this type are only sukha or dukkha, yet the sutta's account of the first arrow speaks also of adukkhamasukhā vedanā. This suggests that the said feelings may also be cakkhusamphassajā, sotasamphassajā, ghānasamphassajā or jivhāsamphassajā (which are always neutral), and manosamphassajā, which may be somanassa, domanassa or neutral.
Mano excluded, kāyika vedanā indeed have five senses as their source. This is confirmed by the Abhidharmasamuccaya.
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Assaji
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Re: Sallatha Sutta SN 36.6 - The Arrow (or dart, thorn)

Post by Assaji »

Paccayata wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:18 pm Sallatha Sutta mentions that in an untrained person, being hurt is like getting hit with two arrows, the bodily feeling (kayika vedana) and then the mental reaction (cetasika vedana). But in a trained person (a disciple of the Buddha), they only feel the bodily one (kayika vedana).
Let me draw upon the non-Theravadin text, Abhidharmasamuccaya, since it gives a clear explanation, which accords well with the Pāli texts.
The Abhidharmasamuccaya additionally explains that feeling can also be classified as physical (kāyika) or mental (caitasika), being either related to the five sense perceptions (and thus based on the contact of the five sense faculties with their objects) or to the mental perception (manovijñāna). Another distinction proposed by the Abhidharmasamuccaya is between feeling “associated with worldly pleasures” (sāmiṣa) and “not associated with worldly pleasures” (nirāmiṣa) or between feeling “based on craving” (gredhāśrita) and “based on renunciation” (naiṣkramyāśrita). The feeling associated with worldly pleasures is explained in the Abhidharmasamuccaya as being associated with desire for the self, whereas the feeling that is based on craving is paraphrased as relying on greed for the five sense objects.
JOWITA KRAMER
Descriptions of “Feeling” (vedanā), “Ideation” (saṃjñā), and “the Unconditioned” (asaṃskṛta) in Vasubandhu’s Pañcaskandhaka and Sthiramati’s Pañcaskandhakavibhāṣā

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sallatha Sutta SN 36.6 - The Arrow (or dart, thorn)

Post by Ceisiwr »

Assaji wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:39 am
...
The sutta makes a distinction between the raw vedana and the emotional reaction (caitasika). Seeing as how contact still happens at the mind, vedana will still be experienced in relation to mental contacts. What is different for the Arahant is the absence of the caitasika reaction, not the absence of painful mental contacts. It seems your Mahayana-Abhidharma is flawed, or is working from a different text. It does not “accord with the Pali texts”.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sallatha Sutta SN 36.6 - The Arrow (or dart, thorn)

Post by Ceisiwr »

form wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:47 am
So it is first impression feeling and after that no more?
Kayika vedana is the “raw experience”, yes. The initial impression of pleasant, painful or neutral. What the Buddha is saying here is that for the worldly person they then go on to fabricate the emotional reactions of sorrow etc in relation to an unpleasant vedana based on an unpleasant contact. For the Buddha and Arahants contact and so vedana is experienced daily at all 6 senses, so it follows painful vedana continues to be experienced based on mental contact just as much as a physical one. For the Buddha this could be a bad memory, seeing your son dead and perhaps even a sense of loneliness. What is different is that he did not grieve, become angry or depressed because of those raw experiences.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Sallatha Sutta SN 36.6 - The Arrow (or dart, thorn)

Post by form »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:00 am
form wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:47 am
So it is first impression feeling and after that no more?
Kayika vedana is the “raw experience”, yes. The initial impression of pleasant, painful or neutral. What the Buddha is saying here is that for the worldly person they then go on to fabricate the emotional reactions of sorrow etc in relation to an unpleasant vedana based on an unpleasant contact. For the Buddha and Arahants contact and so vedana is experienced daily at all 6 senses, so it follows painful vedana continues to be experienced based on mental contact just as much as a physical one. For the Buddha this could be a bad memory, seeing your son dead and perhaps even a sense of loneliness. What is different is that he did not grieve, become angry or depressed because of those raw experiences.
:goodpost:

U taught me something new for such an important sutta. Because of the bodily and mentally reactions in the translation, I have always associate that with bodily pain like illness or physically being harm by a weapon.

What you have proposed is something like first contact - feeling then stop there at the primordial perception. No mental proliferation.
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