Is NIrodha Samapatthi (the cessation of perception and feelings) an aspect of consciousness hence within the five aggreg

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SarathW
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Is NIrodha Samapatthi (the cessation of perception and feelings) an aspect of consciousness hence within the five aggreg

Post by SarathW »

Is NIrodha Samapatthi (the cessation of perception and feelings) an aspect of consciousness hence within the five aggregate?
If yes then why it is not mentioned in Abhidhamma?

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el322.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Dhammanando
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Re: Is NIrodha Samapatthi (the cessation of perception and feelings) an aspect of consciousness hence within the five ag

Post by Dhammanando »

SarathW wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:00 pm Is NIrodha Samapatthi (the cessation of perception and feelings) an aspect of consciousness hence within the five aggregate?
No. It's the human equivalent of being an impercipient deva: no cittas, no cetasikas and only one aggregate, the rūpadhammas in the rūpa-santati.
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
SarathW
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Re: Is NIrodha Samapatthi (the cessation of perception and feelings) an aspect of consciousness hence within the five ag

Post by SarathW »

Dhammanando wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:38 am
SarathW wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:00 pm Is NIrodha Samapatthi (the cessation of perception and feelings) an aspect of consciousness hence within the five aggregate?
No. It's the human equivalent of being an impercipient deva: no cittas, no cetasikas and only one aggregate, the rūpadhammas in the rūpa-santati.
Thank you, Bhante.
Has this state mentioned in Abhidhamma?
I can't recall it.

What is the reason only Anagami and Arahant can enter this state. Why other Jhana practitioners enter it in this life itself. Why they have to die to be reborn in this state.
Unconscious beings (asaññasatta)
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... /loka.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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DooDoot
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Re: Is NIrodha Samapatthi (the cessation of perception and feelings) an aspect of consciousness hence within the five ag

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:15 am Has this state mentioned in Abhidhamma?
It is in MN 43, as follows:
in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabricators have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabricators ... his mental fabricators have ceased & subsided, his [physical] vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided & his [five physical sense organ] faculties are exceptionally clear (clean).
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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SarathW
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Re: Is NIrodha Samapatthi (the cessation of perception and feelings) an aspect of consciousness hence within the five ag

Post by SarathW »

I understand that it is in Sutta.
What is my concern is why this particular mental state is not addressed in Abhidhamma.
For instance where this fitting to Abhidhamma?
Rupa, Citta, Cetasika or Nibbana?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Dhammanando
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Re: Is NIrodha Samapatthi (the cessation of perception and feelings) an aspect of consciousness hence within the five ag

Post by Dhammanando »

SarathW wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:15 am What is the reason only Anagami and Arahant can enter this state. Why other Jhana practitioners enter it in this life itself. Why they have to die to be reborn in this state.
See the Path of Purification, chapter XXIII sections 16-52

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... on2011.pdf
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
SarathW
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Re: Is NIrodha Samapatthi (the cessation of perception and feelings) an aspect of consciousness hence within the five ag

Post by SarathW »

(ii) Who attains it? (iii) Who do not attain it? No ordinary men, no streamenterers or once-returners, and no non-returners and Arahants who are bareinsight workers attain it. But both non-returners and those with cankers destroyed
(Arahants) who are obtainers of the eight attainments attain it. For it is said:
“Understanding that is mastery, owing to possession of two powers, to the
tranquilization of three formations, to sixteen kinds of exercise of knowledge,
and to nine kinds of exercise of concentration, is knowledge of the attainment of
cessation” (Paþis I 97). And these qualifications are not to be found together in
any persons other than non-returners and those whose cankers are destroyed,
who are obtainers of the eight attainments. That is why only they and no others
attain it
Thank you, Bhante.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
pegembara
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Re: Is NIrodha Samapatthi (the cessation of perception and feelings) an aspect of consciousness hence within the five ag

Post by pegembara »

Here is a point of controversy.
Is there a "something" apart from the five aggregates?
And if the five aggregates are all, then "what" is that is observing the rise and fall of those same aggregates?
"Bhikkhus, how do you conceive it: is form permanent or impermanent?" — "Impermanent, venerable Sir." — "Now is what is impermanent painful or pleasant?" — "Painful, venerable Sir." — "Now is what is impermanent, what is painful since subject to change, fit to be regarded thus: 'This is mine, this is I, this is my self'"? — "No, venerable sir."

"Is feeling permanent or impermanent?...

"Is perception permanent or impermanent?...

"Are determinations permanent or impermanent?...

"Is consciousness permanent or impermanent?" — "Impermanent, venerable sir." — "Now is what is impermanent pleasant or painful?" — "Painful, venerable sir." — "Now is what is impermanent, what is painful since subject to change, fit to be regarded thus: 'This is mine, this is I, this is my self'"? — "No, venerable sir."

.....
"Any kind of consciousness whatever, whether past, future or presently arisen, whether gross or subtle, whether in oneself or external, whether inferior or superior, whether far or near must, with right understanding how it is, be regarded thus: 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not my self.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html
The six classes of consciousness should be understood.’ That’s what I said, but why did I say it? Eye consciousness arises dependent on the eye and sights. Ear consciousness arises dependent on the ear and sounds. Nose consciousness arises dependent on the nose and smells. Tongue consciousness arises dependent on the tongue and tastes. Body consciousness arises dependent on the body and touches. Mind consciousness arises dependent on the mind and thoughts. ‘The six classes of consciousness should be understood.’ That’s what I said, and this is why I said it. This is the third set of six.

https://suttacentral.net/mn148/en/sujato
It seems that asking "what is it" is not a valid question for it presupposes/assumes that there is indeed a "what or whom".
“Which is the consciousness, lord, and whose is the consciousness?”

“Not a valid question,” the Blessed One said.… “From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness.”

Which are the fabrications, lord, and whose are the fabrications?”

“Not a valid question,” the Blessed One said.

When one is of the view that the life-principle is the same as the body, there is no leading the holy life. And when one is of the view that the life-principle is one thing and the body another, there is no leading the holy life. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathāgata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications.

The soul is the same as the body,’ or ‘The soul is one thing and the body another’—are abandoned, their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising.”

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN12_35.html
As someone put in another thread which is negated here.
... but consciousness in the 5 aggregates is only the senses and not "consciousness" as the term is meant in modern contexts outside a hospital.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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