Why modern Sutta practice doesn't lead to Samadhi?

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SarathW
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Re: Why modern Sutta practice doesn't lead to Samadhi?

Post by SarathW »

BrokenBones wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:41 am
SarathW wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:24 am Thank you, Robert. This is great information!
Hi SarathW

I'm actually interested in what you actually gleaned or benefited from in Robertk's posting of a commentary to a part of the Abhidhamma.

Obviously I don't connect to it but I was wondering in what way you see it as informative or transformative?

I suppose I'm asking... what 'higher' panna can be attained through these teachings that cannot be attained from the suttas?
My personal opinion is that you can't gain Panna by reading Abhidhamma. However, my knowledge of Abhidhamma is limited even though I have read Abhidhammasangatha many times.
My opinion is Sutta is more appropriate for gaining wisdom.
However, Roberk produced a piece of evidence from the teaching of a prominent monk which I have to respect.
I personally believe that Abhidhamma is a great source for understanding Sutta.
In my opinion, all three Pitakas are part of the parcel.
It is futile to reject one of them and rely only on some parts.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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robertk
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Re: Why modern Sutta practice doesn't lead to Samadhi?

Post by robertk »

My personal opinion is that you can't gain Panna by reading Abhidhamma
Reading Abhidhamma may be with kusala or akusala cittas - many conditions will denote which it is.

Yet I believe studying the Abhidhamma can be a condition to grow confidence in the Dhamma- and even to see how the Abhidhamma is happening at every moment of life. It shows what is mentality and what is materiality. Hard to find the right terms to properly praise it I think.
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pitithefool
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Re: Why modern Sutta practice doesn't lead to Samadhi?

Post by pitithefool »

Eko Care wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:47 pm Most of the Modern Sutta Practioners seem to be far away from Samadhi
than even Vinaya and Abhidhamma people.
Do you have specific people in mind for this or is this just a generalization?

What leads you to believe this?

What observations have you made?
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Eko Care
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Re: Why modern Sutta practice doesn't lead to Samadhi?

Post by Eko Care »

pitithefool wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:50 pm
Eko Care wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:47 pm Most of the Modern Sutta Practioners seem to be far away from Samadhi
than even Vinaya and Abhidhamma people.
Do you have specific people in mind for this or is this just a generalization?
What leads you to believe this?
  • Having seen many people of modern EBT/Sutta kind are less calm
  • and having seen classical-type Sutta/Vinaya/Abhidhamma practioners are not in a higher un-easiness relatively
  • and having seen/read/asked others about their observations which says the same.
(I don't know about everyone, but may be majority/most of them I guess)
pitithefool wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:50 pm What observations have you made?
The below are related to every Putujjana. But if we only compare the given two groups, we can see some relative differences considering only the majority of real practitioners of both groups in general.
  • In an uneasiness
  • Quickly aroused when hear a different view
  • Having the qualities of Teenagers
  • Not Matured
  • Highly Critical yet with less evidence
  • Less respect to Sangha (ancient and modern both)
  • Too Aggressive
  • Having dual mind (Dhamma-driven and too silly qualities at the same time)
  • Argue in a Naive way which drives mature people away from their discussions/book/recordings
  • Having relatively immature views even in day to day life (outside the Dhamma practice)
2600htz
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Re: Why modern Sutta practice doesn't lead to Samadhi?

Post by 2600htz »

Hi:

Ohh such generalization haha.
Anyways if its based on direct experience, there might be several causes:

-in order to follow abhidhamma and vinaya you kinda need an "intellectual personality". This kind of person even if having a wrong idea will typically give good arguments, act in a mature way, etc.

-Highly intellectual people are harder to read in terms of their calmness or lack of it, because they are not so prone to "showing emotion", even less if its unsuitable at a given situation due to high education.

-People following vinaya and abhidhamma either are monks or serious practitioners for many years, usually with a teacher and direct link to the sangha.

-on the other side, people following "modern sutta" interpretations have a much broader spectrum. In here there are many seekers of true, new comers, people with no teacher, no connection to sangha, etc.
You also have long term practitioners, monks and followers of vinaya. But when it comes to generalization they get mixed with the rest.

Regards
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Eko Care
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Re: Why modern Sutta practice doesn't lead to Samadhi?

Post by Eko Care »

2600htz wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:40 pm if its based on direct experience, there might be several causes:

-in order to follow abhidhamma and vinaya you kinda need an "intellectual personality". This kind of person even if having a wrong idea will typically give good arguments, act in a mature way, etc.
Somewhat aggreed
2600htz wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:40 pm -Highly intellectual people ... because they are not so prone to "showing emotion", even less if its unsuitable at a given situation due to high education.
Somewhat aggreed
2600htz wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:40 pm People following vinaya and abhidhamma either are monks or serious practitioners for many years, usually with a teacher and direct link to the sangha.
Somewhat aggreed
2600htz wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:40 pm -on the other side, people following "modern sutta" interpretations ... new comers, people with no teacher, no connection to sangha, etc.
Somewhat aggreed
2600htz wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:40 pm when it comes to generalization ....
Generalization is not always towards everyone.

Eg: It has mentioned the people in "Sunaparanta" were cruel. Obviously not everyone.
(But the majority or at least many of them were cruel)
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pitithefool
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Re: Why modern Sutta practice doesn't lead to Samadhi?

Post by pitithefool »

Eko Care wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:42 pm
pitithefool wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:50 pm
Eko Care wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:47 pm Most of the Modern Sutta Practioners seem to be far away from Samadhi
than even Vinaya and Abhidhamma people.
Do you have specific people in mind for this or is this just a generalization?
What leads you to believe this?
  • Having seen many people of modern EBT/Sutta kind are less calm
  • and having seen classical-type Sutta/Vinaya/Abhidhamma practioners are not in a higher un-easiness relatively
  • and having seen/read/asked others about their observations which says the same.
(I don't know about everyone, but may be majority/most of them I guess)
pitithefool wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:50 pm What observations have you made?
The below are related to every Putujjana. But if we only compare the given two groups, we can see some relative differences considering only the majority of real practitioners of both groups in general.
  • In an uneasiness
  • Quickly aroused when hear a different view
  • Having the qualities of Teenagers
  • Not Matured
  • Highly Critical yet with less evidence
  • Less respect to Sangha (ancient and modern both)
  • Too Aggressive
  • Having dual mind (Dhamma-driven and too silly qualities at the same time)
  • Argue in a Naive way which drives mature people away from their discussions/book/recordings
  • Having relatively immature views even in day to day life (outside the Dhamma practice)
I see you've read my biography lol

Well I can't control what others do but if I'm ever any which way, feel free to call me out on whatever it is I'm doing.

My goal is to practice in line with this dhamma and I shouldn't see any sort of criticism as anything other than helpful in that regard.

:anjali:
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Eko Care
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Re: Why modern Sutta practice doesn't lead to Samadhi?

Post by Eko Care »

pitithefool wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:18 pm I see you've read my biography lol
Really I have not.
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pitithefool
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Re: Why modern Sutta practice doesn't lead to Samadhi?

Post by pitithefool »

Eko Care wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:24 pm
pitithefool wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:18 pm I see you've read my biography lol
Really I have not.
Oh come on this describes me perfectly!
The below are related to every Putujjana. But if we only compare the given two groups, we can see some relative differences considering only the majority of real practitioners of both groups in general.
In an uneasiness
Quickly aroused when hear a different view
Having the qualities of Teenagers
Not Matured
Highly Critical yet with less evidence
Less respect to Sangha (ancient and modern both)
Too Aggressive
Having dual mind (Dhamma-driven and too silly qualities at the same time)
Argue in a Naive way which drives mature people away from their discussions/book/recordings
Having relatively immature views even in day to day life (outside the Dhamma practice)
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DooDoot
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Re: Why modern Sutta practice doesn't lead to Samadhi?

Post by DooDoot »

Eko Care wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:42 pm
  • Having seen many people of modern EBT/Sutta kind are less calm
  • and having seen classical-type Sutta/Vinaya/Abhidhamma practioners are not in a higher un-easiness relatively
Possibly the perceptions of your mind are simply perverted or distorted with diṭṭhivipallāsā.. :shrug:

About speech, the Buddha taught true, pleasant, cordial, beneficial, praise & blame at the right time.

For example, in the world, for puthujjana, truthful speech can be unpleasant & appear abrasive, angry & harsh, therefore the Buddha instructed both true & pleasant speech.

But in the Sangha, the suttas show the Buddha heavily admonished those heretics with wrong view, such as in MN 22, MN 38, etc.

This is an example of praise & blame at the right time.

So far, on this forum, others have attempted to engage in Dhamma discussion with you but it appears your posts are primarily "political" or "identitarian" in nature, i.e., focused on "personality views" rather than focused on a wise examination/investigation of the teachings, as the Buddha taught.

:buddha1:
(44) Others will misapprehend according to their individual views, hold on to them tenaciously and not easily discard them; we shall not misapprehend according to individual views nor hold on to them tenaciously, but shall discard them with ease — thus effacement can be done.

MN 8
he lends ear. Lending ear, he hears the Dhamma. Hearing the Dhamma, he remembers it. Remembering it, he penetrates the meaning of those dhammas. Penetrating the meaning, he comes to an agreement through pondering those dhammas.

MN 95
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Why modern Sutta practice doesn't lead to Samadhi?

Post by Ceisiwr »

pitithefool wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:29 pm
Eko Care wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:24 pm
pitithefool wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:18 pm I see you've read my biography lol
Really I have not.
Oh come on this describes me perfectly!
The below are related to every Putujjana. But if we only compare the given two groups, we can see some relative differences considering only the majority of real practitioners of both groups in general.
In an uneasiness
Quickly aroused when hear a different view
Having the qualities of Teenagers
Not Matured
Highly Critical yet with less evidence
Less respect to Sangha (ancient and modern both)
Too Aggressive
Having dual mind (Dhamma-driven and too silly qualities at the same time)
Argue in a Naive way which drives mature people away from their discussions/book/recordings
Having relatively immature views even in day to day life (outside the Dhamma practice)
This wasn't my impression.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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pitithefool
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Re: Why modern Sutta practice doesn't lead to Samadhi?

Post by pitithefool »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:11 pm This wasn't my impression.
Well that's very kind of you, Ceisiwr :anjali:

Eko Care has a point though. It's not good to act in the ways that he's enumerated. Sometime I do, I know that, so it's good to have someone at lesast pointing it out as a reminder of what good conduct is.

Some day, I'll be able to approach that lol
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Eko Care
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Re: Why modern Sutta practice doesn't lead to Samadhi?

Post by Eko Care »

pitithefool wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:34 pm Eko Care has a point though. It's not good to act in the ways that he's enumerated. Sometime I do, I know that, so it's good to have someone at lesast pointing it out as a reminder of what good conduct is.

Some day, I'll be able to approach that lol
When you'll be able to approach it,
may be , I'll have transformed in to someone like above, :thinking:
because human characteristics are impermanent. :hug:
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pitithefool
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Re: Why modern Sutta practice doesn't lead to Samadhi?

Post by pitithefool »

Eko Care wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:49 pm
pitithefool wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:34 pm Eko Care has a point though. It's not good to act in the ways that he's enumerated. Sometime I do, I know that, so it's good to have someone at lesast pointing it out as a reminder of what good conduct is.

Some day, I'll be able to approach that lol
When you'll be able to approach it,
may be , I'll have transformed in to someone like above, :thinking:
because human characteristics are impermanent. :hug:
And a :hug: to you too :D
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form
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Re: Why modern Sutta practice doesn't lead to Samadhi?

Post by form »

If u look at the sutta and observe those chief disciples thta can meditate, they live a rather secluded life. Modern people that want to have seen success in meditation, they will need to have that component in their lifestyle.
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