Why modern Sutta practice doesn't lead to Samadhi?

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Eko Care
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Why modern Sutta practice doesn't lead to Samadhi?

Post by Eko Care »

Generally and classically,
  • Suttas are considered to lead towards Samadhi.
  • Vinaya leads towards Sila
  • Abhidhamma leads towards Panna.
Nevertheless,
Most of the Modern Sutta Practioners seem to be far away from Samadhi
than even Vinaya and Abhidhamma people.
They seem to be,
  • Less calm and too aggressive
  • Highly critical, tough and rough
  • Disobedient ant conceited
than other two kinds generally.

What is the reason for that? Is it the reason that,
  • their modern interpretation is not the real Sutta interpretation
  • or their Sutta collection is not enough
  • or they don't apply Suttas in to real life at least a little.
  • or multiple of them
bksubhuti wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:45 am I find suttanta people to be quite angry in their writings and speech.
One seasoned suttanta monk calls this "nyanavirus". Usually people outgrow this stage, but it is typically shortly after they read "clearing the path".
I would guess the same is with EBT followers who prefer chinese writings with Mahayana influence over the Pali texts.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Why modern Sutta practice doesn't lead to Samadhi?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Eko Care wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:47 pm
Disobedient ant conceited
Damn that disobedient and conceited ant!
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
SarathW
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Re: Why modern Sutta practice doesn't lead to Samadhi?

Post by SarathW »

Hi EC
I think your statement is a too broad brush.
Is this your personal experience?
Perhaps you have not met the right teacher yet.
I agree that there are a lot of fake teachers but do not use the same yardstick for everyone.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Why modern Sutta practice doesn't lead to Samadhi?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Eko Care,

You're skating on thin ice here.
TOS 2f. Personal attacks, including the vilification of individuals based on any attributes - whether related to their personal attributes (e.g. gender, nationality, sexuality, race, age) or their approach to the Dhamma (e.g. their practices, level of experience, or chosen tradition)
The barn door may have been opened wide elsewhere for you by some to slander anyone who gets the words "secular Buddhist" slapped across their forehead, but don't forget TOS2f exists and will be inforced.

And on a more personal note, I don't think your intolerant evangelism is having the outcomes you would wish it to. Personally, I see little benefit in arrogant contempt towards entire classes of practitioners.

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Eko Care
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Re: Why modern Sutta practice doesn't lead to Samadhi?

Post by Eko Care »

SarathW wrote
I have clearly mentioned the words "Most of", "Modern", "Generally", "Seem to be" and also the above was a question.
And it is not only my personal experience.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

And there is no valid reason for a person to be angry with a question.

The aggressive commenters (if they are of the mentioned kind) may not realize that they are proving the observation mentioned above.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I invite any one to study the subject and then comment, without opposing an observation just because it has nullified your views.
mikenz66 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:00 am
retrofuturist wrote:
I find it curious that you're saying how the advice to "read the Suttas" doesn't resonate with you because you require human interaction and cannot imagine how anyone would learn the Dhamma without it etc.
No, what I am saying is that I have no experience with making a start on the Path by "just reading the suttas", without a practice community and/or various advice from books, talks, and so on. So I don't have any real understanding of how I might have "just read the suttas", since that's not the route I took, and I can't wipe my mind of my past conditioning to experiment with another approach. Due to my conditioning, when I read the Suttas, Vinaya, and Commentaries, I naturally notice how the Buddha talks about community, teachers, admonishment, and so on, as I pointed out above.

However, I do acknowledge that some members, such as yourself, are advocates for a "just read the suttas" approach, so I presume it is possible to have some success with that, though I'd be interested to know if anyone has actually done this in a completely "pure" form, without ever reading any explanatory material outside of Sutta and Vinaya translations.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Why modern Sutta practice doesn't lead to Samadhi?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Eko Care wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:49 pm I invite any one to study the subject and then comment, without opposing an observation just because it has nullified your views.
Can you get the point without speaking obtusely via riddles?

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Why modern Sutta practice doesn't lead to Samadhi?

Post by BrokenBones »

Eko Care wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:47 pm Generally and classically,
  • Suttas are considered to lead towards Samadhi.
  • Vinaya leads towards Sila
  • Abhidhamma leads towards Panna.
Nevertheless,
Most of the Modern Sutta Practioners seem to be far away from Samadhi
than even Vinaya and Abhidhamma people.
They seem to be,
  • Less calm and too aggressive
  • Highly critical, tough and rough
  • Disobedient ant conceited
than other two kinds generally.

What is the reason for that? Is it the reason that,
  • their modern interpretation is not the real Sutta interpretation
  • or their Sutta collection is not enough
  • or they don't apply Suttas in to real life at least a little.
  • or multiple of them
bksubhuti wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:45 am I find suttanta people to be quite angry in their writings and speech.
One seasoned suttanta monk calls this "nyanavirus". Usually people outgrow this stage, but it is typically shortly after they read "clearing the path".
I would guess the same is with EBT followers who prefer chinese writings with Mahayana influence over the Pali texts.
I think we should all read...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .amar.html

Which I believe is one of those suttas the 'suttanta' people are always going on about.
If that doesn't work we could always ask Eko Care where we're going wrong.

This is me applying the suttas in daily life... substituting arising antipathy with mockery 😚... with a bit more practice I'll get the Metta 😉
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Eko Care
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Re: Why modern Sutta practice doesn't lead to Samadhi?

Post by Eko Care »

retrofuturist wrote:
Eko Care wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:49 pm I invite any one to study the subject and then comment, without opposing an observation just because it has nullified your views.
The observations mentioned in the OP are real (concerning the majority) and not just out of anger.
Also they are the observations and opinions of huge numbers of Eastern and Western people that we have associated with.

I believe there should be something missing that leads to at least calmness.
BrokenBones wrote:
I think we should all read... https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .amar.html
Which I believe is one of those suttas the 'suttanta' people are always going on about.
Are you sure about the interpretation?
BrokenBones wrote:
This is me applying the suttas in daily life... with a bit more practice I'll get the Metta
Nevertheless, I'm not responsible if you use some odd interpretation and end up with depression.
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Re: Why modern Sutta practice doesn't lead to Samadhi?

Post by SarathW »

Abhidhamma leads towards Panna.
This understanding is incorrect.
What lead to Panna is the Noble Eightfold Path.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Why modern Sutta practice doesn't lead to Samadhi?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Eko Care,
Eko Care wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:49 pm The observations mentioned in the OP are real (concerning the majority) and not just out of anger.
So, not just out of anger. Good to know, I guess. :shrug:

If it is samadhi you seek, the Suttas give good guidance on tranquilizing mental sankharas and verbal sankharas, including sankharas about those devilish followers of the Sutta who trouble you so. MN 118 and MN 44 might be a good place to start.

All the best.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Why modern Sutta practice doesn't lead to Samadhi?

Post by BrokenBones »

Eko Care wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:10 am
retrofuturist wrote:
Eko Care wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:49 pm I invite any one to study the subject and then comment, without opposing an observation just because it has nullified your views.
The observations mentioned in the OP are real (concerning the majority) and not just out of anger.
Also they are the observations and opinions of huge numbers of Eastern and Western people that we have associated with.

I believe there should be something missing that leads to at least calmness.
BrokenBones wrote:
I think we should all read... https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .amar.html
Which I believe is one of those suttas the 'suttanta' people are always going on about.
Are you sure about the interpretation?
BrokenBones wrote:
This is me applying the suttas in daily life... with a bit more practice I'll get the Metta
Nevertheless, I'm not responsible if you use some odd interpretation and end up with depression.


It's alright Eko Care... I won't hold you personally responsible.
Why do you say odd? I've read quite a few translations... they're all pretty similar.

What is this huge number? (ten feet tall?)
Who is 'we'?
How did people attain panna before the Buddha slipped off to teach Abhidhamma in heaven?
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Re: Why modern Sutta practice doesn't lead to Samadhi?

Post by robertk »

SarathW wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:33 am
Abhidhamma leads towards Panna.
This understanding is incorrect.
What lead to Panna is the Noble Eightfold Path.
Here is the section in full from the Expositor (atthasalini p30-31 of the PTS translation by Maung Tin
Herein three kinds of study of the three Pitakas should be considered:
study after the manner of one catching a snake, study
for the purpose of salvation, and study as of a treasurer. 0£
these, that .study which is badly acquired out of a desire to be
vexatious to others, etc.,1 is like catching a snake. Concerning
which it is said: 'Just as, bhikkhus, a person desirous of
catching a snake goes out in search of one. He sees a big snake
and catches it either by the body or the tail. And the snake
turning back bites him on the hand, the arm, or any other part
of the body big or small. On that account he dies or suffers
pain approaching death. And why 1 Because, bhi~hus,
of his bad catching of the snake. In the same way, bhikkhus,
in the religion some good-for-nothing persons improperly
study the doctrine in its various branches. Having studied
the doctrine they do not intelligently consider the meaning
of the text. And the meaning not being considered with
understanding, those acquired doctrines do not lend themselves
to close insight. These people study the doctrine for the
purpose of annoying others or of freeing themselves from the
criticism or scoffing of others.* For whatever Good right-minded people study the doctrine, that Good these good-for nothing people
do not experience; and the doctrines being bad'ly
acquired are conducive to their disadvantage and misery for
a long time. Wherefore ? Because, bhikkhus, of their being
badly acquire:i.'1 But that study, which is well acquire::l. by
one desirous of fulfilling _a body of precepts, etc., and not for
the sake of annoying others, is for the sake of salvation, concerning
which it is i3aid: ' The doctrines being well acquired
. conduce to advantage and happiness for a long time. Wherefore
? Because, bhikkhus, of their being well acquired.2
Finally, the saint, who has acquired a complete knowledge
of the aggregates, got rid of the corruptions, developed the
Path, [24] penetrated the Fruition of Arahantship, realized the
Truth of Cessation, and extinguished the intoxicants, studies_
merely for the purpose of preserving the tradition, and of
guarding the lineo,ge of the doctrine. This is the study of the
treasurer.
The bhikkhu, who is well practised in the Vinaya, arrives,
by fulfilling the precepts, at the three kinds of knowledge,

which are fully treated of therein. ·
The bhikkhu, who is well
versed in the Suttas, arrives, by his attainment of concentration,
at the six branches of super-knowledge, which are
fully treated of therein
. The bhikkhu, who is well cultivated in
the Abhidhamma, arrives, by his attainment of understanding,
at the four analyses, whi<;h are fully treated of therein
. Thus
the bhikkhu, who is well trained in the three Pitakas, in due
course arrives at the attainment of the three kinds of knowledge,
the six branches of super-knowledge, and the four analyses.
But the bhikkb.u, who is ill trained in the Vinaya, imagines
that there is . no fault in the forbidden sensations of touch,
because the touch of these is similar to that of blankets and
cloaks, etc., which are pleasurable and are permitted by the ·
Buddha. And it has been said:3 'I know the doctrine taught'by the Blessed One, namely, that certain things are inimical
(to progress), but that they are incapable of doing any harm
to one who uses them in certain ways.' Consequently the
bhikkhu arrives at evil practices. The bhikkhu, who is ill
trained in the Sutta, gets a wrong idea, not. knowing the
meaning of such passages as, ' There are,- bhikkhus, four
persons1 in the world,' concerning which it has been said,
' Owing to his wrong ideas,2 he accuses us, harms himself and
pro:luces much demerit.' Consequently he arrives at wrong
views. The bhikkhu, who is ill trained in the Abhidhamma,
makes his mind run to excess in metaphysical abstractions
and thinks of the unthinkable. Consequrntly he gets mental
distractiom. For it has been said, ' Bhikkhus, there are four
unthinkables, things that should not be thought of. Madness
or vexation will be the portion of him who does so.'3
Thus the bhikkhu, who is ill traine;d in the three Pi~akas,
in due course arrives at failure of different sorts, such as evil
principles, wrong views, mental derangement.
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Re: Why modern Sutta practice doesn't lead to Samadhi?

Post by SarathW »

Thank you, Robert. This is great information!
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Why modern Sutta practice doesn't lead to Samadhi?

Post by BrokenBones »

SarathW wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:24 am Thank you, Robert. This is great information!
Hi SarathW

I'm actually interested in what you actually gleaned or benefited from in Robertk's posting of a commentary to a part of the Abhidhamma.

Obviously I don't connect to it but I was wondering in what way you see it as informative or transformative?

I suppose I'm asking... what 'higher' panna can be attained through these teachings that cannot be attained from the suttas?
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Re: Why modern Sutta practice doesn't lead to Samadhi?

Post by DooDoot »

Eko Care wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:47 pm
  • Abhidhamma leads towards Panna.
So the Buddha had no panna? :roll:
Eko Care wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:47 pmMost of the Modern Sutta Practioners seem to be far away from Samadhi
How do u know? Sounds like false speech to me.
Bhikkhus, there are these eight kinds of anariyavohara (ignoble ways of speaking). What are the eight kinds? The eight kinds are:
the tendency to speak of having seen things that have not (really) been seen;
the tendency to speak of having heard things that have not (really) been heard;
the tendency to speak of having experienced things that have not (really) been experienced;
the tendency to speak of having realized things that have not (really) been realized;

the tendency to speak of having not seen things that have been seen;
the tendency to speak of having not heard things that have been heard;
the tendency to speak of having not experienced things that have been experienced;
the tendency to speak of having not realized things that have been realized.

Bhikkhus, these are the eight anariyavohara.
Bhikkhus, there are these eight kinds of ariyavohara (noble ways of speaking). What are the eight kinds? The eight kinds are:
the tendency to speak of having not seen things that have not been seen;
the tendency to speak of having not heard things that have not been heard;
the tendency to speak of having not experienced things that have not been experienced;
the tendency to speak of having not realized things that have not been realized;

the tendency to speak of having seen things that have (really) been seen;
the tendency to speak of having heard things that have (really) been heard;
the tendency to speak of having experienced things that have (really) been experienced;
the tendency to speak of having realized things that have (truly) been realized.
Bhikkhus, these are the eight ariyavohara.
:buddha1:
Eko Care wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:47 pm
  • their modern interpretation is not the real Sutta interpretation
Real sutta is below: :strawman: :jedi:
"Therefore, Ananda, engage with me in friendliness, and not in opposition. That will be for your long-term well-being & happiness.

"I won't hover over you like a potter over damp, unbaked clay goods. Scolding again & again, I will speak. Urging you on again & again, I will speak. Whatever is of essential worth will remain."

MN 122
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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