Abandon avijja first or eliminated at the end ?

[SarathW]

If you dont mind tell me , thats what i want to know .

Here is the exposition according to the 12-fold version of Dependent Origination:

And what is ignorance? Not knowing about suffering, the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering. This is called ignorance.
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/sujato

I'm not sure it's useful to worry too much about the consistency of these different expositions (Fetters, Dependent Origination, Eight-fold path, etc). My impression is that they are used in different contexts to highlight different issues.


Mike

Agree.
It is like a Jigsaw Puzzle
When you start putting pieces together in random the picture will emerge.

[mikenz66]

It is like a Jigsaw Puzzle

Yes.

When you start putting pieces together in random the picture will emerge.

Like this?

I don't see any picture...


Mike

[SarathW]

I know someone will pick my word "random"
Perhaps you have to put them together like a skilled Jigsaw Puzzle solver so the picture will emerge.

[mikenz66]

[asahi]

And unfortunately after two over thousands years the jigsaw puzzle pieces are still scattered as it can be seen in this forum where still trying to understand the definition of namarupa .

[SarathW]

How do you do that?


More to the point that Buddha's teaching is a ball-shaped jigsaw puzzle.
there is no beginning or end.

[asahi]

[SarathW]

And unfortunately after two over thousands years the jigsaw puzzle pieces are still scattered as it can be seen in this forum where still trying to understand the definition of namarupa .

That is because we are trying to understand the picture by looking at a small peace. Do not bog down in Namarupa. Just move on with the rest of the pieaces.

[justindesilva]

An arahant abandon ignorance at the last stage of trainings , but in the cessation of dependent arising ignorance is being abandon first , why ?

After reading an explanation from rev. Madawala Punnaji, I learn that in avidya paccaya sankara, avidya does not mean ignorance. He says that it is insentience. For example at birth in formation of an embryo only a mass of flesh is formed . At that moment there is no sentience. Neural formations are followed next when sentience is activated or sankara ( formations) are felt, it is with formations ( ,sankara) vingnana is conditioned.
However sankara at other places mean differently.
To address the OP chaturogha sutta will be helpful. It is by shedding ignorance one can go forward for marga phala.
Also read vattupama sutta as an example, when a monk sheds his ignorance by watching a dirty cloth to understand klesha.

[asahi]

[asahi]

That is because we are trying to understand the picture by looking at a small peace. Do not bog down in Namarupa. Just move on with the rest of the pieaces.

You did not really answer on any questions unfortunately . Please explain the ignorance in both context ?

[asahi]

After reading an explanation from rev. Madawala Punnaji, I learn that in avidya paccaya sankara, avidya does not mean ignorance. He says that it is insentience. For example at birth in formation of an embryo only a mass of flesh is formed . At that moment there is no sentience. Neural formations are followed next when sentience is activated or sankara ( formations) are felt, it is with formations ( ,sankara) vingnana is conditioned.
However sankara at other places mean differently.
To address the OP chaturogha sutta will be helpful. It is by shedding ignorance one can go forward for marga phala.
Also read vattupama sutta as an example, when a monk sheds his ignorance by watching a dirty cloth to understand klesha.

I dont know what is insentience . That when neural develops after embryo formed to activate the sentience are confusing .
Btw , if you could provide the suttas links .

Thanks

[SarathW]

That is because we are trying to understand the picture by looking at a small peace. Do not bog down in Namarupa. Just move on with the rest of the pieaces.

You did not really answer on any questions unfortunately . Please explain the ignorance in both context ?

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... rance.html

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... vijja.html

[asahi]

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... rance.html

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... vijja.html

Thanks but it would be better to provide your explanations for discussions . The sutta and definition by someone passively does not really helps .

[justindesilva]

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... rance.html

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... vijja.html

Thanks but it would be better to provide your explanations for discussions . The sutta and definition by someone passively does not really helps .

Pls. go to utube and type " avijja is insentience by Bhante madawala Punnaji" ,
to find what rev. Punnaji says. ( I do not know the art of copying utube on to these posts with apologies).