Abandon avijja first or eliminated at the end ?

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asahi
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Abandon avijja first or eliminated at the end ?

Post by asahi »

An arahant abandon ignorance at the last stage of trainings , but in the cessation of dependent arising ignorance is being abandon first , why ?
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SarathW
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Re: Abandon avijja first or eliminated at the end ?

Post by SarathW »

Perhaps you will understand this better if you substitute Sotapanna etc for an Arahant.
Sotapanna has eliminated the self view. That also a reduction in ignorance.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
asahi
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Re: Abandon avijja first or eliminated at the end ?

Post by asahi »

SarathW wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:31 am Perhaps you will understand this better if you substitute Sotapanna etc for an Arahant.
Sotapanna has eliminated the self view. That also a reduction in ignorance.
Sotapanna abandoned self view or identity view ? Also if you could refers me the sutta that states sotapanna being reduced in ignorance !
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SarathW
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Re: Abandon avijja first or eliminated at the end ?

Post by SarathW »

asahi wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:53 am
SarathW wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:31 am Perhaps you will understand this better if you substitute Sotapanna etc for an Arahant.
Sotapanna has eliminated the self view. That also a reduction in ignorance.
Sotapanna abandoned self view or identity view ? Also if you could refers me the sutta that states sotapanna being reduced in ignorance !
Actually, what is ignorance?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
asahi
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Re: Abandon avijja first or eliminated at the end ?

Post by asahi »

If you dont mind tell me , thats what i want to know .
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mikenz66
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Re: Abandon avijja first or eliminated at the end ?

Post by mikenz66 »

asahi wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:36 am If you dont mind tell me , thats what i want to know .
Here is the exposition according to the 12-fold version of Dependent Origination:
And what is ignorance? Not knowing about suffering, the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering. This is called ignorance.
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/sujato
I'm not sure it's useful to worry too much about the consistency of these different expositions (Fetters, Dependent Origination, Eight-fold path, etc). My impression is that they are used in different contexts to highlight different issues.

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Mike
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Re: Abandon avijja first or eliminated at the end ?

Post by plabit »

mikenz66 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:46 am
asahi wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:36 am If you dont mind tell me , thats what i want to know .
Here is the exposition according to the 12-fold version of Dependent Origination:
And what is ignorance? Not knowing about suffering, the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering. This is called ignorance.
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/sujato
I'm not sure it's useful to worry too much about the consistency of these different expositions (Fetters, Dependent Origination, Eight-fold path, etc). My impression is that they are used in different contexts to highlight different issues.

:heart:
Mike
Ignorance is ignorance of the 4 Noble Truths, and no-self is not one of the 4 Noble Truths. In fact the only connection of anatta to the 4 Noble Truths is this: 1st Noble Truth asserts rebirth, and if there is rebirth, then you can't be the body, thus the body is not-self. That's the only connection to the 4 Noble Truths at all for anatta.
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mikenz66
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Re: Abandon avijja first or eliminated at the end ?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Plabit,
plabit wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:56 am
mikenz66 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:46 am
asahi wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:36 am If you dont mind tell me , thats what i want to know .
Here is the exposition according to the 12-fold version of Dependent Origination:
And what is ignorance? Not knowing about suffering, the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering. This is called ignorance.
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/sujato
I'm not sure it's useful to worry too much about the consistency of these different expositions (Fetters, Dependent Origination, Eight-fold path, etc). My impression is that they are used in different contexts to highlight different issues.

:heart:
Mike
Ignorance is ignorance of the 4 Noble Truths, and no-self is not one of the 4 Noble Truths. In fact the only connection of anatta to the 4 Noble Truths is this: 1st Noble Truth asserts rebirth, and if there is rebirth, then you can't be the body, thus the body is not-self. That's the only connection to the 4 Noble Truths at all for anatta.
Is your statement about anatta related to my post? I'm afraid I can't see the connection.

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Mike
plabit
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Re: Abandon avijja first or eliminated at the end ?

Post by plabit »

mikenz66 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:04 am Hi Plabit,
plabit wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:56 am
mikenz66 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:46 am
Here is the exposition according to the 12-fold version of Dependent Origination:

I'm not sure it's useful to worry too much about the consistency of these different expositions (Fetters, Dependent Origination, Eight-fold path, etc). My impression is that they are used in different contexts to highlight different issues.

:heart:
Mike
Ignorance is ignorance of the 4 Noble Truths, and no-self is not one of the 4 Noble Truths. In fact the only connection of anatta to the 4 Noble Truths is this: 1st Noble Truth asserts rebirth, and if there is rebirth, then you can't be the body, thus the body is not-self. That's the only connection to the 4 Noble Truths at all for anatta.
Is your statement about anatta related to my post? I'm afraid I can't see the connection.

:heart:
Mike
More to SarathW's post
SarathW wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:31 am Perhaps you will understand this better if you substitute Sotapanna etc for an Arahant.
Sotapanna has eliminated the self view. That also a reduction in ignorance.
but also because of what you quoted.
sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

The ignorance to consider is perhaps best understood by understanding its opposite, wisdom or panna.
Panna can be:

something one has read or heard and accepted,

or something one has studied and pondered and so accepted,

or the one that matters as far as making progress on the path, a knowing gained from direct personal experience by meditating.

By meditating a direct experience of the four noble truths can be had (panna or true knowledge*) and thus a loss of ignorance

"Bhikkhus, that one shall here and now make an end of suffering by abandoning the underlying tendency to lust for pleasant mind-feeling, by abolishing the underlying tendency to aversion for painful mind-feeling, by extirpating the underlying tendency to ignorance in regard to neither-painful-nor-pleasant mind-feeling, by abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge - this is possible.
Bundokji
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Re: Abandon avijja first or eliminated at the end ?

Post by Bundokji »

asahi wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:12 am An arahant abandon ignorance at the last stage of trainings , but in the cessation of dependent arising ignorance is being abandon first , why ?
This has to do with definitions. By definition, the Arahant is free from ignorance. When you imagine Arahantship as the final attainment in a gradual training that operates in time and space, then cessation of ignorance/arising of knowledge comes last.

If you take DO origination as a model of conditionality, the cessation of ignorance is a condition for the cessation of sankhara. Having the model of conditionality beginning with ignorance is a cause for investigation, considering that ignorance itself has no known beginning (so its more prescriptive than descriptive - dhamma being invitation to investigate).
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
SarathW
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Re: Abandon avijja first or eliminated at the end ?

Post by SarathW »

asahi wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:12 am An arahant abandon ignorance at the last stage of trainings , but in the cessation of dependent arising ignorance is being abandon first , why ?
This is a bit like a chicken and egg question.
It is like a growing seed to a tree.
You get the seed from a good friend. (Kalyanamitta)
As humans, we are already born with both wisdom and ignorance. So we cultivate wisdom and abandon ignorance.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
asahi
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Re: Abandon avijja first or eliminated at the end ?

Post by asahi »

mikenz66 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:46 am I'm not sure it's useful to worry too much about the consistency of these different expositions (Fetters, Dependent Origination, Eight-fold path, etc). My impression is that they are used in different contexts to highlight different issues.
If you could elaborate how the ignorance in ten fetters context and ignorance in dependent arising context differs that would be of much helps .


SarathW wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:53 am This is a bit like a chicken and egg question.
It is like a growing seed to a tree.
You get the seed from a good friend. (Kalyanamitta)
As humans, we are already born with both wisdom and ignorance. So we cultivate wisdom and abandon ignorance.
I remember the Buddha saids His teachings are excellent in the beginnings , in the middles and in the ends . If you are born with wisdom then you are now suppose to be a liberated person ! When ignorance is gone only then wisdom would arise .
I never heard of ignorance and wisdom can exists at the same time . Or your type of wisdom is but mere intellectual understanding !
Last edited by Dhammanando on Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mikenz66
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Re: Abandon avijja first or eliminated at the end ?

Post by mikenz66 »

asahi wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:30 pm
mikenz66 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:46 am I'm not sure it's useful to worry too much about the consistency of these different expositions (Fetters, Dependent Origination, Eight-fold path, etc). My impression is that they are used in different contexts to highlight different issues.
If you could elaborate how the ignorance in ten fetters context and ignorance in dependent arising context differs that would be of much helps .
I'm sorry, but I was speaking in general, and to fully flesh out the similarities and differences would be a very large task. I don't recall offhand how ignorance is defined in suttas in the context of the Fetters. It's commonly defined as not knowing the noble truths in the context of DO, and right view is commonly defined as knowing the truths. However, right view is defined differently in other places, for example.

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Mike
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Re: Abandon avijja first or eliminated at the end ?

Post by pitithefool »

mikenz66 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:59 pm
asahi wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:30 pm
mikenz66 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:46 am I'm not sure it's useful to worry too much about the consistency of these different expositions (Fetters, Dependent Origination, Eight-fold path, etc). My impression is that they are used in different contexts to highlight different issues.
If you could elaborate how the ignorance in ten fetters context and ignorance in dependent arising context differs that would be of much helps .
I'm sorry, but I was speaking in general, and to fully flesh out the similarities and differences would be a very large task. I don't recall offhand how ignorance is defined in suttas in the context of the Fetters. It's commonly defined as not knowing the noble truths in the context of DO, and right view is commonly defined as knowing the truths. However, right view is defined differently in other places, for example.

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Mike
I've heard Vijja defined as the type of knowledge a doctor has in diagnosing and treating illness, gained after a lot of study and practice. I'm not sure how helpful that is though :shrug:
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