Abandon avijja first or eliminated at the end ?
Abandon avijja first or eliminated at the end ?
An arahant abandon ignorance at the last stage of trainings , but in the cessation of dependent arising ignorance is being abandon first , why ?
No bashing No gossiping
Re: Abandon avijja first or eliminated at the end ?
Perhaps you will understand this better if you substitute Sotapanna etc for an Arahant.
Sotapanna has eliminated the self view. That also a reduction in ignorance.
Sotapanna has eliminated the self view. That also a reduction in ignorance.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: Abandon avijja first or eliminated at the end ?
Sotapanna abandoned self view or identity view ? Also if you could refers me the sutta that states sotapanna being reduced in ignorance !
No bashing No gossiping
Re: Abandon avijja first or eliminated at the end ?
Actually, what is ignorance?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: Abandon avijja first or eliminated at the end ?
If you dont mind tell me , thats what i want to know .
No bashing No gossiping
Re: Abandon avijja first or eliminated at the end ?
Here is the exposition according to the 12-fold version of Dependent Origination:
I'm not sure it's useful to worry too much about the consistency of these different expositions (Fetters, Dependent Origination, Eight-fold path, etc). My impression is that they are used in different contexts to highlight different issues.And what is ignorance? Not knowing about suffering, the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering. This is called ignorance.
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/sujato
Mike
Re: Abandon avijja first or eliminated at the end ?
Ignorance is ignorance of the 4 Noble Truths, and no-self is not one of the 4 Noble Truths. In fact the only connection of anatta to the 4 Noble Truths is this: 1st Noble Truth asserts rebirth, and if there is rebirth, then you can't be the body, thus the body is not-self. That's the only connection to the 4 Noble Truths at all for anatta.mikenz66 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:46 amHere is the exposition according to the 12-fold version of Dependent Origination:I'm not sure it's useful to worry too much about the consistency of these different expositions (Fetters, Dependent Origination, Eight-fold path, etc). My impression is that they are used in different contexts to highlight different issues.And what is ignorance? Not knowing about suffering, the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering. This is called ignorance.
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/sujato
Mike
Re: Abandon avijja first or eliminated at the end ?
Hi Plabit,
Mike
Is your statement about anatta related to my post? I'm afraid I can't see the connection.plabit wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:56 amIgnorance is ignorance of the 4 Noble Truths, and no-self is not one of the 4 Noble Truths. In fact the only connection of anatta to the 4 Noble Truths is this: 1st Noble Truth asserts rebirth, and if there is rebirth, then you can't be the body, thus the body is not-self. That's the only connection to the 4 Noble Truths at all for anatta.mikenz66 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:46 amHere is the exposition according to the 12-fold version of Dependent Origination:I'm not sure it's useful to worry too much about the consistency of these different expositions (Fetters, Dependent Origination, Eight-fold path, etc). My impression is that they are used in different contexts to highlight different issues.And what is ignorance? Not knowing about suffering, the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering. This is called ignorance.
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/sujato
Mike
Mike
Re: Abandon avijja first or eliminated at the end ?
More to SarathW's postmikenz66 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:04 am Hi Plabit,Is your statement about anatta related to my post? I'm afraid I can't see the connection.plabit wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:56 amIgnorance is ignorance of the 4 Noble Truths, and no-self is not one of the 4 Noble Truths. In fact the only connection of anatta to the 4 Noble Truths is this: 1st Noble Truth asserts rebirth, and if there is rebirth, then you can't be the body, thus the body is not-self. That's the only connection to the 4 Noble Truths at all for anatta.mikenz66 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:46 am
Here is the exposition according to the 12-fold version of Dependent Origination:
I'm not sure it's useful to worry too much about the consistency of these different expositions (Fetters, Dependent Origination, Eight-fold path, etc). My impression is that they are used in different contexts to highlight different issues.
Mike
Mike
but also because of what you quoted.
The ignorance to consider is perhaps best understood by understanding its opposite, wisdom or panna.
Panna can be:
something one has read or heard and accepted,
or something one has studied and pondered and so accepted,
or the one that matters as far as making progress on the path, a knowing gained from direct personal experience by meditating.
By meditating a direct experience of the four noble truths can be had (panna or true knowledge*) and thus a loss of ignorance
"Bhikkhus, that one shall here and now make an end of suffering by abandoning the underlying tendency to lust for pleasant mind-feeling, by abolishing the underlying tendency to aversion for painful mind-feeling, by extirpating the underlying tendency to ignorance in regard to neither-painful-nor-pleasant mind-feeling, by abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge - this is possible.
Panna can be:
something one has read or heard and accepted,
or something one has studied and pondered and so accepted,
or the one that matters as far as making progress on the path, a knowing gained from direct personal experience by meditating.
By meditating a direct experience of the four noble truths can be had (panna or true knowledge*) and thus a loss of ignorance
"Bhikkhus, that one shall here and now make an end of suffering by abandoning the underlying tendency to lust for pleasant mind-feeling, by abolishing the underlying tendency to aversion for painful mind-feeling, by extirpating the underlying tendency to ignorance in regard to neither-painful-nor-pleasant mind-feeling, by abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge - this is possible.
Re: Abandon avijja first or eliminated at the end ?
This has to do with definitions. By definition, the Arahant is free from ignorance. When you imagine Arahantship as the final attainment in a gradual training that operates in time and space, then cessation of ignorance/arising of knowledge comes last.
If you take DO origination as a model of conditionality, the cessation of ignorance is a condition for the cessation of sankhara. Having the model of conditionality beginning with ignorance is a cause for investigation, considering that ignorance itself has no known beginning (so its more prescriptive than descriptive - dhamma being invitation to investigate).
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
This was the last word of the Tathagata.
This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Re: Abandon avijja first or eliminated at the end ?
This is a bit like a chicken and egg question.
It is like a growing seed to a tree.
You get the seed from a good friend. (Kalyanamitta)
As humans, we are already born with both wisdom and ignorance. So we cultivate wisdom and abandon ignorance.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: Abandon avijja first or eliminated at the end ?
If you could elaborate how the ignorance in ten fetters context and ignorance in dependent arising context differs that would be of much helps .
I remember the Buddha saids His teachings are excellent in the beginnings , in the middles and in the ends . If you are born with wisdom then you are now suppose to be a liberated person ! When ignorance is gone only then wisdom would arise .
I never heard of ignorance and wisdom can exists at the same time . Or your type of wisdom is but mere intellectual understanding !
Last edited by Dhammanando on Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed personal attack
Reason: Removed personal attack
No bashing No gossiping
Re: Abandon avijja first or eliminated at the end ?
I'm sorry, but I was speaking in general, and to fully flesh out the similarities and differences would be a very large task. I don't recall offhand how ignorance is defined in suttas in the context of the Fetters. It's commonly defined as not knowing the noble truths in the context of DO, and right view is commonly defined as knowing the truths. However, right view is defined differently in other places, for example.
Mike
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Re: Abandon avijja first or eliminated at the end ?
I've heard Vijja defined as the type of knowledge a doctor has in diagnosing and treating illness, gained after a lot of study and practice. I'm not sure how helpful that is thoughmikenz66 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:59 pmI'm sorry, but I was speaking in general, and to fully flesh out the similarities and differences would be a very large task. I don't recall offhand how ignorance is defined in suttas in the context of the Fetters. It's commonly defined as not knowing the noble truths in the context of DO, and right view is commonly defined as knowing the truths. However, right view is defined differently in other places, for example.
Mike
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