How possible is it to train like this ?

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asahi
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How possible is it to train like this ?

Post by asahi »

How to train like this ? Is it at all possible other than arahants ?
If someone give you a blow with a weapon (says a knife or a gun) , would you able to take it ?


It is thus that you must train yourself, Phagguna.

Wherefore, Phagguna, even if anyone face to face with you should give a blow with the hand to these nuns, should give a blow with a clod of earth, should give a blow with a stick, should give a blow with a weapon, even then, Phagguna, should you train yourself thus:

‘Neither will my mind become perverted, nor will I utter an evil speech, but kindly and compassionate will I dwell with a mind of friendliness and void of hatred.’

It is thus that you must train yourself, Phagguna .
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Sam Vara
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Re: How possible is it to train like this ?

Post by Sam Vara »

asahi wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:15 am How to train like this ? Is it at all possible other than arahants ?
If someone give you a blow with a weapon (says a knife or a gun) , would you able to take it ?


It is thus that you must train yourself, Phagguna.

Wherefore, Phagguna, even if anyone face to face with you should give a blow with the hand to these nuns, should give a blow with a clod of earth, should give a blow with a stick, should give a blow with a weapon, even then, Phagguna, should you train yourself thus:

‘Neither will my mind become perverted, nor will I utter an evil speech, but kindly and compassionate will I dwell with a mind of friendliness and void of hatred.’

It is thus that you must train yourself, Phagguna .
An interesting question, because here the example is not being threatened with a weapon or with blows, but witnessing the abuse of those who are dear - in this case, nuns. Some people might find it easier to withstand their own pain or fear than to witness that of others. I think most parents would, if their children were threatened. I read that one of the ways in which Saddam Hussein's security services gained compliance from people was to routinely threaten to torture their children in front of them. So this might be a far more stringent test than merely being able to endure our own suffering inflicted by others.

Interestingly, the sutta (MN 21) doesn't specify what emotions of anger, fear, resentment, etc. should be avoided in such a situation. The Buddha says to Phagguna that intentions and thoughts appropriate to the household life should be avoided. This seems to suggest (along with the background setting, which is concern that Phagguna has become too close to the nuns) that the issue is less one of responding appropriately to violence and threats, and more about the wisdom of not allowing certain relationships and their attendant emotions to arise in the first place.

It would I think be theoretically possible to take action to remedy the situation which is specified - to stop someone abusing those who are dear to us - and to maintain equilibrium. But yes, it would I think be far beyond the capacities of most of us.
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Re: How possible is it to train like this ?

Post by SarathW »

I think this teaching is for monks not for laypeople even though laypeople who are Sotapanna and above may practice like this.
Lay people protect the Sangha from the Adhammic invaders.
I don't think they will follow this rule.
See what happened in Tibet.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
asahi
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Re: How possible is it to train like this ?

Post by asahi »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:47 am
An interesting question, because here the example is not being threatened with a weapon or with blows, but witnessing the abuse of those who are dear - in this case, nuns. Some people might find it easier to withstand their own pain or fear than to witness that of others. I think most parents would, if their children were threatened. I read that one of the ways in which Saddam Hussein's security services gained compliance from people was to routinely threaten to torture their children in front of them. So this might be a far more stringent test than merely being able to endure our own suffering inflicted by others.

Interestingly, the sutta (MN 21) doesn't specify what emotions of anger, fear, resentment, etc. should be avoided in such a situation. The Buddha says to Phagguna that intentions and thoughts appropriate to the household life should be avoided. This seems to suggest (along with the background setting, which is concern that Phagguna has become too close to the nuns) that the issue is less one of responding appropriately to violence and threats, and more about the wisdom of not allowing certain relationships and their attendant emotions to arise in the first place.

It would I think be theoretically possible to take action to remedy the situation which is specified - to stop someone abusing those who are dear to us - and to maintain equilibrium. But yes, it would I think be far beyond the capacities of most of us.
If one can easily get angry when challenge by someone in this forum without having real contact whatmore in real life situation .
To act without aversion for trained peoples whether in response to stop someone abusing our love one or even defending ourself if attack by someone and still can maintain equilibrium is quite impossible .
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Re: How possible is it to train like this ?

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asahi wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:41 pm If one can easily get angry when challenge by someone in this forum without having real contact whatmore in real life situation .
To act without aversion for trained peoples whether in response to stop someone abusing our love one or even defending ourself if attack by someone and still can maintain equilibrium is quite impossible .
Yes, I think that's probably correct for nearly all of us. It might be worth bearing the teaching in mind as an ideal, however; something to aim for, no matter how remote. It would not inspire us if the examples the Buddha gave were all about making compromises. Given that he himself was without defilement, it shows us that it is humanly possible.

We see the same in Christianity: "Be perfect, as your Heavenly Father is perfect".
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Re: How possible is it to train like this ?

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asahi wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:41 pm If one can easily get angry when challenge by someone in this forum without having real contact whatmore in real life situation .
To act without aversion for trained peoples whether in response to stop someone abusing our love one or even defending ourself if attack by someone and still can maintain equilibrium is quite impossible .
The buddha said "One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm." (MN 140 Dhatu-vibhanga Sutta: An Analysis of the Properties..https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html)

In defending against physical attack the most important thing to enhance your effectiveness is being calm.
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Re: How possible is it to train like this ?

Post by bodom »

The Buddha always teaches what is possible for us to do:
Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what is unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, I would not say to you, ‘Abandon what is unskillful.’ But because it is possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, ‘Abandon what is unskillful.’ If this abandoning of what is unskillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, ‘Abandon what is unskillful.’ But because this abandoning of what is unskillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, ‘Abandon what is unskillful.’

“Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I would not say to you, ‘Develop what is skillful.’ But because it is possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, ‘Develop what is skillful.’ If this development of what is skillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, ‘Develop what is skillful.’ But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, ‘Develop what is skillful.’”
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN2_19.html

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: How possible is it to train like this ?

Post by asahi »

chownah wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:28 pm
The buddha said "One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm." (MN 140 Dhatu-vibhanga Sutta: An Analysis of the Properties..https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html)

In defending against physical attack the most important thing to enhance your effectiveness is being calm.
chownah
Yes train for calm , that is if one achieve very deep jhana to be able to handle a stab from a knife or even from a blow of gun without losing equanimity .
Thanks

bodom wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:58 pm The Buddha always teaches what is possible for us to do:
Sure , developing skillful and abandon the unskillful . But to reach the degrees enable to absorb of such massive impacts (a bullet in the body) thats not so easy . I can see not many .

:thanks:
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Re: How possible is it to train like this ?

Post by bodom »

asahi wrote:Sure , developing skillful and abandon the unskillful . But to reach the degrees enable to absorb of such massive impacts (a bullet in the body) thats not so easy . I can see not many .

:thanks:
No, unfortunately no sutta pasage that says it will be easy :tongue:

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: How possible is it to train like this ?

Post by befriend »

https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php/11 ... cing_Metta One of the 11 benefits of metta is that poison fire swords cannot harm you. My guess is it may harm the body but not the mind. Maybe
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
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Re: How possible is it to train like this ?

Post by chownah »

asahi wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:17 pm Yes train for calm , that is if one achieve very deep jhana to be able to handle a stab from a knife or even from a blow of gun without losing equanimity .
Don't try to make things seem to be so impossible....by doing this you are just making it more difficult for yourself.....maintaining calm is not only found in some far away and difficult destination like "very deep jhana"....
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Re: How possible is it to train like this ?

Post by asahi »

bodom wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:23 pm
No, unfortunately no sutta pasage that says it will be easy :tongue:

:anjali:
:rofl:
chownah wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:50 am Don't try to make things seem to be so impossible....by doing this you are just making it more difficult for yourself.....maintaining calm is not only found in some far away and difficult destination like "very deep jhana"....
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Re: How possible is it to train like this ?

Post by mjaviem »

asahi wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:17 pm Yes train for calm , that is if one achieve very deep jhana to be able to handle a stab from a knife or even from a blow of gun without losing equanimity .
...
What do you want to train for then? Martial arts? What is the benefit of speaking evil and turning to a hating and perverted mind after a hand blow was given to the nuns? If you don't want to be attacked with a gun or a knife you better train for wholesome deeds and a peaceful life.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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