Is the operation of Dependent Origination individual or collective?

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retrofuturist
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Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings sunnat,
sunnat wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:17 am Dependent origination refers to a circular sequence of causes with effects that become causes that determine each individuals samsara.
Circular? For this to be believed, please show a Sutta that shows the first element of paticcasamuppada arising in dependence upon final element of the paticcasamuppada.

:thanks:

In the absence of such a Sutta it would appear that the causes of avijja are actually a "not knowing" of the Four Noble Truths, fuelled by sensual desire, being and ignorance itself.
MN9 wrote:And what is ignorance, what is the origin of ignorance, what is the cessation of ignorance, what is the way leading to the cessation of ignorance? Not knowing about dukkha, not knowing about the origin of dukkha, not knowing about the cessation of dukkha, not knowing about the way leading to the cessation of dukkha — this is called ignorance. With the arising of the taints there is the arising of ignorance; with the cessation of the taints there is the cessation of ignorance. The way leading to the cessation of ignorance is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration."

...

"And what are the taints, what is the origin of the taints, what is the cessation of the taints, what is the way leading to the cessation of the taints? There are three taints: the taint of sensual desire, the taint of being and the taint of ignorance.
Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Is the operation of Dependent Origination individual or collective?

Post by asahi »

SarathW wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:26 pm Is the operation of Dependent Origination individual, collective or individual and collective?
The question arises from wrong view . An individual (viewed as a unit by itself or apart) does not exists .
No individual therefore no collective individuals or both .


a noble disciple has clearly seen with correct wisdom as it really is this :

it is impossible that he will run back into the past, thinking: ‘Did I exist in the past? Did I not exist in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what did I become in the past?’ Or that he will run forward into the future, thinking: ‘Will I exist in the future? Will I not exist in the future? What will I be in the future? How will I be in the future? Having been what, what will I become in the future?’ Or that he will now be inwardly confused about the present thus: ‘Do I exist? Do I not exist? What am I? How am I? This being—where has it come from, and where will it go?
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Re: Is the operation of Dependent Origination individual or collective?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
asahi wrote:An individual (viewed as a unit by itself or apart) does not exists .
No individual therefore no collective individuals or both
It would appear you are over-reaching here.

By definition, every aspect of paticcasamuppada is a fabrication, dependent upon ignorance. Thus, it is all both fake (sankhata) and stupid (moha). Fake and stupid things include becoming and birth/identification as an individual. Nonetheless, paticcasamuppada explains arisen phenomena, so fake and stupid things do arise. Therefore, despite you telling Sarath his question arises from Wrong View, to take any fake and stupid phenomena (such as "individuals") as either "existing" or "not existing" is to be lacking in Right View.
SN 12.15 wrote:Ven. Kaccayana Gotta approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To what extent is there right view?"

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view.

"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications... (etc., including becoming and identification)
Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Is the operation of Dependent Origination individual or collective?

Post by SarathW »

asahi wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:25 am
SarathW wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:26 pm Is the operation of Dependent Origination individual, collective or individual and collective?
The question arises from wrong view . An individual (viewed as a unit by itself or apart) does not exists .
No individual therefore no collective individuals or both .


a noble disciple has clearly seen with correct wisdom as it really is this :

it is impossible that he will run back into the past, thinking: ‘Did I exist in the past? Did I not exist in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what did I become in the past?’ Or that he will run forward into the future, thinking: ‘Will I exist in the future? Will I not exist in the future? What will I be in the future? How will I be in the future? Having been what, what will I become in the future?’ Or that he will now be inwardly confused about the present thus: ‘Do I exist? Do I not exist? What am I? How am I? This being—where has it come from, and where will it go?
Thanks, Asahi
Now you got to the point which I wanted to discuss.
Then What about the Kamma?
Is it individual, collective or individual and collective?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Is the operation of Dependent Origination individual or collective?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
SarathW wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:42 am What about the Kamma?
Is it individual, collective or individual and collective?
Individual only.

Anything else is superstitious claptrap with no foundation in the Suttas.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Is the operation of Dependent Origination individual or collective?

Post by asahi »

retrofuturist wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:39 am By definition, every aspect of paticcasamuppada is a fabrication, dependent upon ignorance. Thus, it is all both fake (sankhata) and stupid (moha). Fake and stupid things include becoming and birth/identification as an individual. Nonetheless, paticcasamuppada explains arisen phenomena, so fake and stupid things do arise. Therefore, despite you telling Sarath his question arises from Wrong View, to take any fake and stupid phenomena (such as "individuals") as either "existing" or "not existing" is to be lacking in Right View.
SarathW viewed it as individual or a single unit that something taken as true "Existing" which is a wrong view .
I says individual of "single unit" exists by itself cant be pin-point .
Now , If one saids stupid / fake things do arise , it would then cease to be accordingly which is an illusion . The fact is in reality the individual in sarathW eyes that exists arises and ceases does not happens for an arahant . Therefore , question of this "true" individual events is something misled .
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Re: Is the operation of Dependent Origination individual or collective?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings asahi,
asahi wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:05 am SarathW viewed it as individual or a single unit that something taken as true "Existing" which is a wrong view .
Except he may have just been using regular parlance for the purposes of communication. I didn't see any commitment to self-view in his words. It would be preferable to ask Sarath what his view is, rather than telling him.
asahi wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:05 am Now , If one saids stupid / fake things do arise , it would then cease to be accordingly which is an illusion .
Rather, cessation is the cessation of the illusion... the cessation of all fake and stupid phenomena.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Is the operation of Dependent Origination individual or collective?

Post by asahi »

retrofuturist wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:14 am .....
Well , looking at his questions , it seems when sarathW viewed it as individually and collectively or in both cases in separation thats appears to be a kind of self view .
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Re: Is the operation of Dependent Origination individual or collective?

Post by asahi »

SarathW wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:42 am Now you got to the point which I wanted to discuss.
Then What about the Kamma?
Is it individual, collective or individual and collective?
Unfortunately , i dont understand you refers kamma as what hence not able to comment .
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Re: Is the operation of Dependent Origination individual or collective?

Post by SarathW »

asahi wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:44 am
SarathW wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:42 am Now you got to the point which I wanted to discuss.
Then What about the Kamma?
Is it individual, collective or individual and collective?
Unfortunately , i dont understand you refers kamma as what hence not able to comment .
Is there much difference in Kamma and Dependent Origination?
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Post by sunnat »

"Whosoever is in the dark with regard to the conditionally arisen things, and does not understand that karma originates from ignorance, etc., he thinks that it must be his ego that knows or does not know, acts and causes to act, and that arises at rebirth. Or he thinks that the atoms, or a creator, with the help of this embryonic process, must have formed this body, or that it is the ego endowed with faculties that has impressions, feels, desires, clings, continues and enters again into existence in a new birth. Or he thinks that all beings have been born through fate, or fortuitously" (Vis.M. XVII).


"Through ignorance are conditioned the karma-formations" (avijjā-paccayā sankhārā)


"No being and no living soul passed from the former life to this life, and yet this present embryo could not have entered into existence without the preceding causes" (Vis.M. XVII)


Kamma causes rebirth. Upon rebirth the cycle of dependent origination continues.
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Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
sunnat wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:35 am Upon rebirth the cycle of dependent origination continues.
Once again you're calling paticcasamuppada circular, this time referring to it as a "cycle".

As above, please quote Sutta to demonstrate this circular or cyclical nature, lest you be peddling misinformed Wrong View.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Re:

Post by SarathW »

retrofuturist wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:11 am Greetings,
sunnat wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:35 am Upon rebirth the cycle of dependent origination continues.
Once again you're calling paticcasamuppada circular, this time referring to it as a "cycle".

As above, please quote Sutta to demonstrate this circular or cyclical nature, lest you be peddling misinformed Wrong View.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Hi Retro
I am sure you already know that there are many kinds of Dependent Origination formula and they all do not start from Ignorance.
I can't remember where these many kinds are shown in Sutta.
Perhaps Mike can chip in here as I can recall he is the one who pointed this out to me.
When you look at them it is possible DO could be circular.
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Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
SarathW wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:20 am I am sure you already know that there are many kinds of Dependent Origination formula and they all do not start from Ignorance.
I didn't say they did, but then, I'm not the one claiming they are circular.
SarathW wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:20 am When you look at them it is possible DO could be circular.
Again, if that's true, there will be Sutta to substantiate that. I shall wait. :popcorn:

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Re: Is the operation of Dependent Origination individual or collective?

Post by ToVincent »

Circular is just a way to represent it.
One could as well represent it on a vertical line.
The circularity resides in the cause and the call.

As in, for instance: "Because there is manosañcetana (cause/That), there is maintenance of viññāṇa in the viññāṇa nidāna. Because of the maintenance of viññāṇa in the viññāṇa nidāna (That), namarupa calls (hoti) the viññāṇa in the viññāṇa nidāna, and the viññāṇa in the viññāṇa nidāna descends in the namarupa nidāna. Etc.
That turns out there - this calls,
From the coming forth of that, this originates.
That doesn’t turn out, this does not call,
Due to the cessation of that there, this ceases.

Imasmiṃ sati idaṃ hoti,
Imassuppādā idaṃ uppajjati.
Imasmiṃ asati idaṃ na hoti,
Imassa nirodhā idaṃ nirujjhati
With hoti coming from root hū/hve (to call), not bhū
This could be represented on a vertical scale — up, then down - down then up, etc. .
This up and down, and up and down,... can be considered as a loop - up to the point when one does not maintain viññāṇa in the viññāṇa nidāna.
https://justpaste.it/1bzye
Then one can enter the higher ayatanani (space, nothingness, etc.) — up to ending with the sankharas.

This" vicious circle" is just a figure of speech. Just an easier way to grasp the concept - And easier to draw as well.
The endless (vertical) back and forths is just a loop (circular).

Let's not be psychologically too rigid on the matter.

Also, when I say "because of", it's just that I just don't want to mess up people's mind, by saying "becondition of" instead.
.
.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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