Is the operation of Dependent Origination individual or collective?

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SarathW
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Is the operation of Dependent Origination individual or collective?

Post by SarathW »

Is the operation of Dependent Origination individual, collective or individual and collective?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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DooDoot
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Re: Is the operation of Dependent Origination individual or collective?

Post by DooDoot »

The collective is comprised of similarly brainwashed individuals.
Now, craving is dependent on feeling, seeking is dependent on craving, acquisition is dependent on seeking, ascertainment is dependent on acquisition, desire and passion is dependent on ascertainment, attachment is dependent on desire and passion, possessiveness is dependent on attachment, stinginess is dependent on possessiveness, defensiveness is dependent on stinginess, and because of defensiveness, dependent on defensiveness, various evil, unskillful phenomena come into play: the taking up of sticks and knives; conflicts, quarrels, and disputes; accusations, divisive speech, and lies.

DN 15
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form
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Re: Is the operation of Dependent Origination individual or collective?

Post by form »

Look at the few sections in the nikaya where the Buddha address unity and diversity. Likely it is conditioned.
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mikenz66
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Re: Is the operation of Dependent Origination individual or collective?

Post by mikenz66 »

Some conditions are not individual, so in that sense it is trivially obvious that some conditionality is not individual. For example, your death may come because of a global war, an asteroid strike, or climate change. However, the conditions described in Dependent Origination seem to be internal, rather then collective.

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Re: Is the operation of Dependent Origination individual or collective?

Post by DooDoot »

mikenz66 wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:34 pm ... your death may come because of a global war, an asteroid strike or climate change.
the idea of "my death" appears to exclusively pertain to the individual
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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mikenz66
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Re: Is the operation of Dependent Origination individual or collective?

Post by mikenz66 »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:38 pm
mikenz66 wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:34 pm ... your death may come because of a global war, an asteroid strike or climate change.
the idea of "my death" appears to exclusively pertain to the individual
I was referring to the cause.

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DooDoot
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Re: Is the operation of Dependent Origination individual or collective?

Post by DooDoot »

mikenz66 wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:40 pm I was referring to the cause.
The Buddha taught (SN 12.66; MN 26; etc) the cause of "death" is "acquisition" ("upadhi"). Are u suggesting "climate change" is an "upadhi"? :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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mikenz66
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Re: Is the operation of Dependent Origination individual or collective?

Post by mikenz66 »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:48 pm
mikenz66 wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:40 pm I was referring to the cause.
The Buddha taught (SN 12.66; MN 26; etc) the cause of "death" is "acquisition" ("upadhi"). Are u suggesting "climate change" is an "upadhi"? :shrug:
This is conditions, not "causes".
When attachments exist old age and death come to be.
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.66/en/sujato
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DooDoot
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Re: Is the operation of Dependent Origination individual or collective?

Post by DooDoot »

mikenz66 wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:57 pm This is conditions, not "causes".
Idaṁ kho dukkhaṁ upadhinidānaṁ upadhisamudayaṁ upadhijātikaṁ upadhipabhavaṁ, upadhismiṁ sati jarāmaraṇaṁ hoti

this suffering has acquisition as its source, acquisition as its origin; it is born and produced from acquisition. When there is acquisition, aging-and-death comes to be

SN 12.66
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Is the operation of Dependent Origination individual or collective?

Post by Coëmgenu »

What would it mean for dependent origination to be "collective?" Would it mean that each being goes through the same "steps" simultaneously and together?

"Individually, all conditioned things are dependently originated" and "collectively, all conditioned things are dependently originated" are largely the same statement. What is relevant is whether "all conditioned things" are being spoken of individually as different things or collectively as conditioned things that are all collectively conditioned things.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
Seated in solitude, the body and the mind are made calm and pure.
Moved by serenity, they act for each others' salvation.
The nature of the mind, like this, is alien to all corruption
when the body, as it should, sits at peace.

(T848.46b23 Vairocana Sūtra)
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Re: Is the operation of Dependent Origination individual or collective?

Post by pegembara »

The origin of the cycle of DO is "ignorance" or not seeing the reality of existence - so it applies to both the individual as well as the society at large.
How else can the individual and the society as a whole be willing to sacrifice blood and tears for a "worthy" cause?
And what is ignoble search? There is the case where a person, being subject himself to birth, seeks [happiness in] what is likewise subject to birth. Being subject himself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, he seeks [happiness in] what is likewise subject to illness... death... sorrow... defilement.

"And what may be said to be subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement? Spouses & children... men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver [2] are subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement. Subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement. This is ignoble search.

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Upadhi=you pick it up and it is now yours!
Last edited by pegembara on Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Is the operation of Dependent Origination individual or collective?

Post by DooDoot »

Subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement. This is ignoble search
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Is the operation of Dependent Origination individual or collective?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
SarathW wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:26 pm Is the operation of Dependent Origination individual, collective or individual and collective?
Individual only.

Anything else is superstitious claptrap with no foundation in the Suttas.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view?" (SN 5.10)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
form
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Re: Is the operation of Dependent Origination individual or collective?

Post by form »

Well, birds of same feathers do flock together. As stated in the Nikayaa. That I think is the argument for it to be collective.

For example, great disciples of the Buddha of different styles have the same style monks following them. An individuals with another individual that has been kins for many lives will be some like of collective similarities.

Another example will be beings if the same realms delight in the same things.
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Post by sunnat »

Dependent origination refers to a circular sequence of causes with effects that become causes that determine each individuals samsara. In a group, with each individual on the wheel of becoming but on their individual stage, collectively a different set of causes and effects (becoming causes then effects and so on) evolve, more along the line of Marx's dialectics where each thesis gives birth to its antithesis which in turn becomes the dominant thesis creating its antithesis, or perhaps like a Markov Chain where each event determines the following event.


Because of similarities and such observations that climate change arguably has an origin in consumerism or greed and so ignorance and leads to death, it is perhaps easy to conflate them.
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