Asura realm

[form]

Is this realm sometimes categorised under another realm? Or is it a realm that exist simultaneously with another realm? I don't really remember I have read about someone in the sutta that has reborned as an asura.

[rajitha7]

31 realms -> Brahma, Deva, Manushya (human), Thirisan (animal), Petha, Bhutha, Niraya.

Although clans of people (human beings) are often confused with above.

-> Sura, Asura
-> Naga, Deva, Yakka, Khubanda, Ghandharwa etc

* The Asura is a human clan. It's often confused with the Bhutha of the 31 realms.
* The Yakka is a human clan. It's often confused with the Petha of the 31 realms.
* The Deva is also a human clan. It's often confused with the Deva of the 31 realms.
* The Naga is a human clan. It's often confused with non-existent Naga of the 31 realms.

Normally, a way to differentiate is to see if a name or gender is mentioned. The fine matter beings do not have names or a gender. They are spontaneously born without requiring a mothers womb.

[DooDoot]

Is this realm sometimes categorised under another realm? Or is it a realm that exist simultaneously with another realm? I don't really remember I have read about someone in the sutta that has reborned as an asura.

It appears Iti 93 is the only sutta that separates the asura realm from the rest of the deva realm.

Humankind delights in personal existence.

Unfree from the bonds of Māra
They swell the ranks of hell,
Existence in the animal realm,
Asura-demons and the sphere of ghosts.

https://suttacentral.net/iti93/en/ireland

[Alino]

[rajitha7]

Quoted here.

-> "The Asuras were driven out of Thawthisa heaven for getting drunk"

The correct phrase;

-> "The Asuras were driven out of Thawthisa city for getting drunk"

Believe it or not, back in those days people divided themselves into clans who like alcohol (Asuras) and those who did not (Sura). The 2 clans quite regularly at war with each other.

The fine matter beings cannot drink or eat. They intake food a different way.

Thawthisa is a city home of Sakka. The Sakka belonged to the Sura clan. The Asuras were driven out of Thawthisa. Thawthisa is not a heaven. It's a city of normal people.

[form]

So asura realm is a deva realm?

[rajitha7]

No - this does not belong in 31 realms.

The Asura (drunkards) is a clan of human beings. The Sura (teetotaller), the opposition are also a clan of people.

The Sakka is both a Deva and also a member of the Sura clan.

[form]

No - it does not belong in 31 realms.

The Asura (drunkards) is a clan of human beings. The Sura (teetotaller), the opposition are also a clan of people.

The Sakka is both Deva and also a member of the Sura clan.

A clan? But under what realm?

So in total there are 5 or 6 realms?

[form]

What about Naga and yakkha?

[rajitha7]

Naga, Yakka, Asura -> are all normal human beings. Refer above post.

[Dhammanando]

The Asura (drunkards) is a clan of human beings.

To judge from the Lokacintāsutta they must be awfully tiny humans.

“Bhikkhus, once in the past a certain man set out from Rajagaha and went to the Sumagadha Lotus Pond, thinking: ‘I will reflect about the world.’ He then sat down on the bank of the Sumagadha Lotus Pond reflecting about the world. Then, bhikkhus, the man saw a four-division army entering a lotus stalk on the bank of the pond. Having seen this, he thought: ‘I must be mad! I must be insane! I’ve seen something that doesn’t exist in the world.’ The man returned to the city and informed a great crowd of people: ‘I must be mad, sirs! I must be insane! I’ve seen something that doesn’t exist in the world.’

“They said to him: ‘But how is it, good man, that you are mad? How are you insane? And what have you seen that doesn’t exist in the world?’

“‘Here, sirs, I left Rajagaha and approached the Sumagadha Lotus Pond … as above … I saw a four-division army entering a lotus stalk on the bank of the pond. That’s why I’m mad, that’s why I’m insane, and that’s what I’ve seen that doesn’t exist in the world.’

“‘Surely you’re mad, good man! Surely you’re insane! And what you have seen doesn’t exist in the world.’

“Nevertheless, bhikkhus, what that man saw was actually real, not unreal. Once in the past the devas and the asuras were arrayed for battle. In that battle the devas won and the asuras were defeated. In their defeat, the asuras were frightened and entered the asura city through the lotus stalk, to the bewilderment of the devas.

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/sn56.41

[confusedlayman]

The Asura (drunkards) is a clan of human beings.

To judge from the Lokacintāsutta they must be awfully tiny humans.

“Bhikkhus, once in the past a certain man set out from Rajagaha and went to the Sumagadha Lotus Pond, thinking: ‘I will reflect about the world.’ He then sat down on the bank of the Sumagadha Lotus Pond reflecting about the world. Then, bhikkhus, the man saw a four-division army entering a lotus stalk on the bank of the pond. Having seen this, he thought: ‘I must be mad! I must be insane! I’ve seen something that doesn’t exist in the world.’ The man returned to the city and informed a great crowd of people: ‘I must be mad, sirs! I must be insane! I’ve seen something that doesn’t exist in the world.’

“They said to him: ‘But how is it, good man, that you are mad? How are you insane? And what have you seen that doesn’t exist in the world?’

“‘Here, sirs, I left Rajagaha and approached the Sumagadha Lotus Pond … as above … I saw a four-division army entering a lotus stalk on the bank of the pond. That’s why I’m mad, that’s why I’m insane, and that’s what I’ve seen that doesn’t exist in the world.’

“‘Surely you’re mad, good man! Surely you’re insane! And what you have seen doesn’t exist in the world.’

“Nevertheless, bhikkhus, what that man saw was actually real, not unreal. Once in the past the devas and the asuras were arrayed for battle. In that battle the devas won and the asuras were defeated. In their defeat, the asuras were frightened and entered the asura city through the lotus stalk, to the bewilderment of the devas.

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/sn56.41

Lotus stalk? This is crazy to understand for me...

[rajitha7]

The Asura (drunkards) is a clan of human beings.

To judge from the Lokacintāsutta they must be awfully tiny humans.

“Nevertheless, bhikkhus, what that man saw was actually real, not unreal. Once in the past the devas and the asuras were arrayed for battle. In that battle the devas won and the asuras were defeated. In their defeat, the asuras were frightened and entered the asura city through the lotus stalk, to the bewilderment of the devas.

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/sn56.41

Well, living beings are born Deva because there is no hatred in their mindset. So going to war would be something that is next to impossible for a Deva.

Only humans are capable of war. So it's a strange translation.

[Dhammanando]

Well, living beings are born Deva because there is no hatred in their mindset. So going to war would be something that is next to impossible for a Deva.

Only humans are capable of war. So it's a strange translation.

It's a perfectly sound translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi. Moreover, the suttas are full of allusions to past wars between devas and asuras. For the references see the entry for "asura" in Malalasekera's dictionary:

http://aimwell.org/DPPN/asura.html

Now there is actually a type of human whom the Buddha calls an asura, but it's not a tribe of people.

Asura Sutta

“Mendicants, these four people are found in the world. What four?

1. A demon (asura) surrounded by demons,
2. a demon surrounded by gods,
3. a god surrounded by demons, and
4. a god surrounded by gods.

And how is a person a demon surrounded by demons? It’s when a person is unethical, of bad character, and their followers are the same. That’s how a person is a demon surrounded by demons.

And how is a person a demon surrounded by gods? It’s when a person is unethical, of bad character, but their followers are ethical, of good character. That’s how a person is a demon surrounded by gods.

And how is a person a god surrounded by demons? It’s when a person is ethical, of good character, but their followers are unethical, of bad character. That’s how a person is a god surrounded by demons.

And how is a person a god surrounded by gods? It’s when a person is ethical, of good character, and their followers are the same. That’s how a person is a god surrounded by gods.

These are the four people found in the world.'


https://suttacentral.net/an4.91/en/sujato

[Dhammanando]

Well, living beings are born Deva because there is no hatred in their mindset. So going to war would be something that is next to impossible for a Deva.

That's true of brahmās but not of sense-sphere devas. There are many accounts of the latter getting angry.

From the Vinaya Pitaka:

Origin story
At one time the Buddha was staying at Āḷavī at the Aggāḷava Shrine. At that time the monks at Āḷavī were doing building work. And they cut down trees and had them cut down. Then, when a certain monk was cutting down a tree, the deity that lived in it said to him, “Venerable, don’t cut down our dwelling because you want to build a dwelling for yourself.” Not taking any heed, he just cut it down, and he hurt the arm of that deity’s child. That deity thought, “Perhaps I should just kill this monk?” But then it reconsidered, “It wouldn’t be appropriate for me to just kill this monk. Why don’t I instead tell the Buddha about this matter?” And it approached the Buddha and told him what had happened.

“Well done, deity! It’s good that you didn’t kill that monk. If you had killed that monk today, you would have made much demerit. The tree in such-and-such a spot is empty; take that as your dwelling.”