DN 2 conclusively details: What is rūpa (form), and a-rūpa in four jhānas context?

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frank k
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DN 2 conclusively details: What is rūpa (form), and a-rūpa in four jhānas context?

Post by frank k »

DN 2 conclusively details: What is rūpa (form), and a-rūpa in four jhānas context?
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... rupa.html

why I posted the article here instead of Early Buddhism:

DN 2 is part of the sutta pitaka, so how rupa and arupa is understood there overrides Abhidhamma pitaka.
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Re: DN 2 conclusively details: What is rūpa (form), and a-rūpa in four jhānas context?

Post by Ceisiwr »

You haven’t demonstrated much. You simply assert that rupa here must mean “matter” and then make absurd claims about literal cloning.

“Here is how my preferred English translations prove my preferred English translations”
31 body parts
The sutta doesn’t even mention this.
The rest depends on you. The EBT preservationists of ancient times did a phenomenal job making it clear what 'rupa' and 'kaya' are.

If you blindly follow teachers who teach VRJ🐍 , then nothing changes.
This is strange because you agree with the Visuddhimagga and the Abhidhamma by defining rupa as “matter”.
“When serenity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Lust is abandoned.”

“When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Wisdom is developed. And when wisdom is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned."


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Re: DN 2 conclusively details: What is rūpa (form), and a-rūpa in four jhānas context?

Post by pitithefool »

frank k wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:44 pm DN 2 conclusively details: What is rūpa (form), and a-rūpa in four jhānas context?
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... rupa.html

why I posted the article here instead of Early Buddhism:

DN 2 is part of the sutta pitaka, so how rupa and arupa is understood there overrides Abhidhamma pitaka.
I've always heard Rupa defined as "object of attention" even if it's mental. I don't think rupa even in terms of jhana can really by separated from this formula:

Rupa + Sense base/salayata + Consciousness = contact.
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Re: DN 2 conclusively details: What is rūpa (form), and a-rūpa in four jhānas context?

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:01 pm You haven’t demonstrated much. You simply assert that rupa here must mean “matter” and then make absurd claims about literal cloning.
:goodpost: FrankK's highlighted quotes appear unrelated to jhana itself. "Absurd" appears to be an understatement.
pitithefool wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:34 pm I've always heard Rupa defined as "object of attention" even if it's mental. I don't think rupa even in terms of jhana can really by separated from this formula: Rupa + Sense base/salayata + Consciousness = contact.
Obviously the above is incorrect because there are six sense bases. In fact, the term "salayatana" literally means "six sense bases".
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Re: DN 2 conclusively details: What is rūpa (form), and a-rūpa in four jhānas context?

Post by frank k »

Red herrings and strawmen.
Just posturing to make yourself sound like you have a valid argument.
You're very close to joining the few elite members of my 'blocked' list.
I can address any of the points you raise if you can PM me and explain that you really are dealing in good faith, otherwise I'm not going to waste my time with the likes of you.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:01 pm You haven’t demonstrated much. You simply assert that rupa here must mean “matter” and then make absurd claims about literal cloning.

“Here is how my preferred English translations prove my preferred English translations”
31 body parts
The sutta doesn’t even mention this.
The rest depends on you. The EBT preservationists of ancient times did a phenomenal job making it clear what 'rupa' and 'kaya' are.

If you blindly follow teachers who teach VRJ🐍 , then nothing changes.
This is strange because you agree with the Visuddhimagga and the Abhidhamma by defining rupa as “matter”.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
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Re: DN 2 conclusively details: What is rūpa (form), and a-rūpa in four jhānas context?

Post by frank k »

not quite right there in the relationship of those,
a new being to be reborn, in the form of vinnana,
craves and attaches and binds with the nama (perception, feeling, volition, contact, attention) + rupa (4 elements)
pitithefool wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:34 pm ...
Rupa + Sense base/salayata + Consciousness = contact.
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Re: DN 2 conclusively details: What is rūpa (form), and a-rūpa in four jhānas context?

Post by Ceisiwr »

frank k wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:20 pm Red herrings and strawmen.
Just posturing to make yourself sound like you have a valid argument.
Please do point out the straw men and red herrings?
I can address any of the points you raise if you can PM me and explain that you really are dealing in good faith, otherwise I'm not going to waste my time with the likes of you.
I don’t need to PM you to tell you I’m deadly serious in my disagreement with just about everything you have to say. Every time it’s badly argued and comes with sloppy justifications, with just a smidge of an attitude problem. You have categorically not demonstrated that kaya means the physical body here nor that rupa means “matter”. You merely take it as a given, or rather assert it, and then build your argument from there. It seems like you are begging the question.
You're very close to joining the few elite members of my 'blocked' list.
That’s up to you. No need to announce it really.
“When serenity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Lust is abandoned.”

“When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Wisdom is developed. And when wisdom is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned."


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Re: DN 2 conclusively details: What is rūpa (form), and a-rūpa in four jhānas context?

Post by pitithefool »

frank k wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:23 pm not quite right there in the relationship of those,
a new being to be reborn, in the form of vinnana,
craves and attaches and binds with the nama (perception, feeling, volition, contact, attention) + rupa (4 elements)
pitithefool wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:34 pm ...
Rupa + Sense base/salayata + Consciousness = contact.
In this case, It would still be the external sense objects, not necessarily just 4 elements. Remember, in the salayatana definitions, rupa actually means "shape" or "form" or "visual object", sepcifically in terms of the eye. We still have mental objects etc. It's also important to point out that birth doesn't happen until after becoming, clinging, craving, and feeling, which all come after nama-rupa. Nama rupa just means subject-object.

In terms of jhana, we're actively becoming right where consciousness meets its object albeit in a non-sensual way, i.e. we're not trying to make ourselves happy through 5-sense contact, but rather through meditating.

Rupa is very close in meaning to the term "form" in English and mental objects would also be a type of form, though they are generally speaking not called that. Mental object + mind + mind-consciousness = contact > feeling > craving > clinging > becoming > birth.

Still though, the most important interaction we're influencing when meditating is the relationship between the sense bases, their objects, their conscioiusnesses and the feelings, perceptions, etc born of their contact. This doesn't mean we're necessarily analyzing it but rather inserting skillful sankhara into the mix so as to bring the whole chain of DO tumbling down to nirodha.
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Re: DN 2 conclusively details: What is rūpa (form), and a-rūpa in four jhānas context?

Post by Ceisiwr »

pitithefool wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:18 pm
Rupa is very close in meaning to the term "form" in English and mental objects would also be a type of form, though they are generally speaking not called that. Mental object + mind + mind-consciousness = contact > feeling > craving > clinging > becoming > birth.
You forgot attention. Mental object + mind + attention, as per MN 28. Same for the other senses.
“When serenity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Lust is abandoned.”

“When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Wisdom is developed. And when wisdom is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned."


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Ceisiwr
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Re: DN 2 conclusively details: What is rūpa (form), and a-rūpa in four jhānas context?

Post by Ceisiwr »

pitithefool wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:18 pm
Nama rupa just means subject-object.
It can also retain its old Upanishadic meaning of “that individual over there”, or any external object. In DN 15 for example we see both used. The 1st under designation contact, which is the Buddha’s own and more detailed explanation of namarupa, whilst the 2nd is in terms of the being about to be born. The namarupa which “grows up” etc. There are other places where namarupa means this, or as any external object. What namarupa means in the suttas therefore depends on the context. It can be the old Upanishadic meaning or the Buddha’s related yet more specific meaning, which revolves around its role in cognition and sense experience.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“When serenity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Lust is abandoned.”

“When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Wisdom is developed. And when wisdom is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned."


AN 2.31
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Re: DN 2 conclusively details: What is rūpa (form), and a-rūpa in four jhānas context?

Post by DooDoot »

frank k wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:44 pm DN 2 conclusively details: What is rūpa (form), and a-rūpa in four jhānas context?
"Rupa" here does mean "physical form" but not for the illogical reasons posted incoherently in that messy blog. Such illogical desperate searching or clutching at straws demonstrates the existence of doubt about what jhana really is; probably due to non-attainment.
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Re: DN 2 conclusively details: What is rūpa (form), and a-rūpa in four jhānas context?

Post by pitithefool »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:47 pm It can also retain its old Upanishadic meaning of “that individual over there”, or any external object. In DN 15 for example we see both used. The 1st under designation contact, which is the Buddha’s own and more detailed explanation of namarupa, whilst the 2nd is in terms of the being about to be born. The namarupa which “grows up” etc. There are other places where namarupa means this, or as any external object. What namarupa means in the suttas therefore depends on the context. It can be the old Upanishadic meaning or the Buddha’s related yet more specific meaning, which revolves around its role in cognition and sense experience.
Indeed
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Re: DN 2 conclusively details: What is rūpa (form), and a-rūpa in four jhānas context?

Post by ToVincent »

As seen on this sketch
https://justpaste.it/img/8b5aab8360db19 ... 2d3961.png
Rūpa takes on the three meanings of the suttas. Namely:
- mahābhūtāna rūpa (fire, water, earth, air).
- upādāya rūpa (The "forms derived" from them [e.g. a tree]).
- bāhirāni āyatanāni rūpa (the "sight" [e.g. of a tree]).

No need for nonsensical philosophaster's maunders and palavers - (and pretensiously dubious references).

Some people just love to put the fish that was in the bowl, back into the ocean — incessantly — one might wonder, what are the intentions behind that?
_______

Oh!, and manasikāra means "turning the mano towards" - (usually towards the yoni: the origin).
"Attention" does not assume the proper meaning of it.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
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Those who desire good are few, and those who desire evil are many.
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(And you just can't imagine how much goodness, those who desire evil, are ready to display - ToVincent).
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Re: DN 2 conclusively details: What is rūpa (form), and a-rūpa in four jhānas context?

Post by frank k »

pitithefool wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:18 pm ...
In this case, It would still be the external sense objects, not necessarily just 4 elements. Remember, in the salayatana definitions, rupa actually means "shape" or "form" or "visual object", sepcifically in terms of the eye. We still have mental objects etc. It's also important to point out that birth doesn't happen until after becoming, clinging, craving, and feeling, which all come after nama-rupa. Nama rupa just means subject-object.
...
At least for the OP, DN 2 passages, it is definitely the 4 elements of the meditator's anatomical body. That's why they specifically said "the rupa born of mother and father and porridge".
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Re: DN 2 conclusively details: What is rūpa (form), and a-rūpa in four jhānas context?

Post by Ceisiwr »

frank k wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:56 pm
pitithefool wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:18 pm ...
In this case, It would still be the external sense objects, not necessarily just 4 elements. Remember, in the salayatana definitions, rupa actually means "shape" or "form" or "visual object", sepcifically in terms of the eye. We still have mental objects etc. It's also important to point out that birth doesn't happen until after becoming, clinging, craving, and feeling, which all come after nama-rupa. Nama rupa just means subject-object.
...
At least for the OP, DN 2 passages, it is definitely the 4 elements of the meditator's anatomical body. That's why they specifically said "the rupa born of mother and father and porridge".
That isn’t what it says at all. It says this kayo is born of mother and father, not this rupa. It makes a distinction between the two.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“When serenity is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Lust is abandoned.”

“When insight is developed, what purpose does it serve? Wisdom is developed. And when wisdom is developed, what purpose does it serve? Ignorance is abandoned."


AN 2.31
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