DN 2 conclusively details: What is rūpa (form), and a-rūpa in four jhānas context?
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... rupa.html
why I posted the article here instead of Early Buddhism:
DN 2 is part of the sutta pitaka, so how rupa and arupa is understood there overrides Abhidhamma pitaka.
DN 2 conclusively details: What is rūpa (form), and a-rūpa in four jhānas context?
DN 2 conclusively details: What is rūpa (form), and a-rūpa in four jhānas context?
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
www.audtip.org/audtip: Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
Re: DN 2 conclusively details: What is rūpa (form), and a-rūpa in four jhānas context?
You haven’t demonstrated much. You simply assert that rupa here must mean “matter” and then make absurd claims about literal cloning.
“Here is how my preferred English translations prove my preferred English translations”
“Here is how my preferred English translations prove my preferred English translations”
The sutta doesn’t even mention this.31 body parts
This is strange because you agree with the Visuddhimagga and the Abhidhamma by defining rupa as “matter”.The rest depends on you. The EBT preservationists of ancient times did a phenomenal job making it clear what 'rupa' and 'kaya' are.
If you blindly follow teachers who teach VRJ , then nothing changes.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
- pitithefool
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Re: DN 2 conclusively details: What is rūpa (form), and a-rūpa in four jhānas context?
I've always heard Rupa defined as "object of attention" even if it's mental. I don't think rupa even in terms of jhana can really by separated from this formula:frank k wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:44 pm DN 2 conclusively details: What is rūpa (form), and a-rūpa in four jhānas context?
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... rupa.html
why I posted the article here instead of Early Buddhism:
DN 2 is part of the sutta pitaka, so how rupa and arupa is understood there overrides Abhidhamma pitaka.
Rupa + Sense base/salayata + Consciousness = contact.
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Re: DN 2 conclusively details: What is rūpa (form), and a-rūpa in four jhānas context?
FrankK's highlighted quotes appear unrelated to jhana itself. "Absurd" appears to be an understatement.
Obviously the above is incorrect because there are six sense bases. In fact, the term "salayatana" literally means "six sense bases".pitithefool wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:34 pm I've always heard Rupa defined as "object of attention" even if it's mental. I don't think rupa even in terms of jhana can really by separated from this formula: Rupa + Sense base/salayata + Consciousness = contact.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Re: DN 2 conclusively details: What is rūpa (form), and a-rūpa in four jhānas context?
Red herrings and strawmen.
Just posturing to make yourself sound like you have a valid argument.
You're very close to joining the few elite members of my 'blocked' list.
I can address any of the points you raise if you can PM me and explain that you really are dealing in good faith, otherwise I'm not going to waste my time with the likes of you.
Just posturing to make yourself sound like you have a valid argument.
You're very close to joining the few elite members of my 'blocked' list.
I can address any of the points you raise if you can PM me and explain that you really are dealing in good faith, otherwise I'm not going to waste my time with the likes of you.
Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:01 pm You haven’t demonstrated much. You simply assert that rupa here must mean “matter” and then make absurd claims about literal cloning.
“Here is how my preferred English translations prove my preferred English translations”
The sutta doesn’t even mention this.31 body parts
This is strange because you agree with the Visuddhimagga and the Abhidhamma by defining rupa as “matter”.The rest depends on you. The EBT preservationists of ancient times did a phenomenal job making it clear what 'rupa' and 'kaya' are.
If you blindly follow teachers who teach VRJ , then nothing changes.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
www.audtip.org/audtip: Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
Re: DN 2 conclusively details: What is rūpa (form), and a-rūpa in four jhānas context?
not quite right there in the relationship of those,
a new being to be reborn, in the form of vinnana,
craves and attaches and binds with the nama (perception, feeling, volition, contact, attention) + rupa (4 elements)
a new being to be reborn, in the form of vinnana,
craves and attaches and binds with the nama (perception, feeling, volition, contact, attention) + rupa (4 elements)
pitithefool wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:34 pm ...
Rupa + Sense base/salayata + Consciousness = contact.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
www.audtip.org/audtip: Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
Re: DN 2 conclusively details: What is rūpa (form), and a-rūpa in four jhānas context?
Please do point out the straw men and red herrings?
I don’t need to PM you to tell you I’m deadly serious in my disagreement with just about everything you have to say. Every time it’s badly argued and comes with sloppy justifications, with just a smidge of an attitude problem. You have categorically not demonstrated that kaya means the physical body here nor that rupa means “matter”. You merely take it as a given, or rather assert it, and then build your argument from there. It seems like you are begging the question.I can address any of the points you raise if you can PM me and explain that you really are dealing in good faith, otherwise I'm not going to waste my time with the likes of you.
That’s up to you. No need to announce it really.You're very close to joining the few elite members of my 'blocked' list.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
- pitithefool
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Re: DN 2 conclusively details: What is rūpa (form), and a-rūpa in four jhānas context?
In this case, It would still be the external sense objects, not necessarily just 4 elements. Remember, in the salayatana definitions, rupa actually means "shape" or "form" or "visual object", sepcifically in terms of the eye. We still have mental objects etc. It's also important to point out that birth doesn't happen until after becoming, clinging, craving, and feeling, which all come after nama-rupa. Nama rupa just means subject-object.frank k wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:23 pm not quite right there in the relationship of those,
a new being to be reborn, in the form of vinnana,
craves and attaches and binds with the nama (perception, feeling, volition, contact, attention) + rupa (4 elements)pitithefool wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:34 pm ...
Rupa + Sense base/salayata + Consciousness = contact.
In terms of jhana, we're actively becoming right where consciousness meets its object albeit in a non-sensual way, i.e. we're not trying to make ourselves happy through 5-sense contact, but rather through meditating.
Rupa is very close in meaning to the term "form" in English and mental objects would also be a type of form, though they are generally speaking not called that. Mental object + mind + mind-consciousness = contact > feeling > craving > clinging > becoming > birth.
Still though, the most important interaction we're influencing when meditating is the relationship between the sense bases, their objects, their conscioiusnesses and the feelings, perceptions, etc born of their contact. This doesn't mean we're necessarily analyzing it but rather inserting skillful sankhara into the mix so as to bring the whole chain of DO tumbling down to nirodha.
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Re: DN 2 conclusively details: What is rūpa (form), and a-rūpa in four jhānas context?
You forgot attention. Mental object + mind + attention, as per MN 28. Same for the other senses.pitithefool wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:18 pm
Rupa is very close in meaning to the term "form" in English and mental objects would also be a type of form, though they are generally speaking not called that. Mental object + mind + mind-consciousness = contact > feeling > craving > clinging > becoming > birth.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: DN 2 conclusively details: What is rūpa (form), and a-rūpa in four jhānas context?
It can also retain its old Upanishadic meaning of “that individual over there”, or any external object. In DN 15 for example we see both used. The 1st under designation contact, which is the Buddha’s own and more detailed explanation of namarupa, whilst the 2nd is in terms of the being about to be born. The namarupa which “grows up” etc. There are other places where namarupa means this, or as any external object. What namarupa means in the suttas therefore depends on the context. It can be the old Upanishadic meaning or the Buddha’s related yet more specific meaning, which revolves around its role in cognition and sense experience.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: DN 2 conclusively details: What is rūpa (form), and a-rūpa in four jhānas context?
"Rupa" here does mean "physical form" but not for the illogical reasons posted incoherently in that messy blog. Such illogical desperate searching or clutching at straws demonstrates the existence of doubt about what jhana really is; probably due to non-attainment.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
- pitithefool
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Re: DN 2 conclusively details: What is rūpa (form), and a-rūpa in four jhānas context?
IndeedCeisiwr wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:47 pm It can also retain its old Upanishadic meaning of “that individual over there”, or any external object. In DN 15 for example we see both used. The 1st under designation contact, which is the Buddha’s own and more detailed explanation of namarupa, whilst the 2nd is in terms of the being about to be born. The namarupa which “grows up” etc. There are other places where namarupa means this, or as any external object. What namarupa means in the suttas therefore depends on the context. It can be the old Upanishadic meaning or the Buddha’s related yet more specific meaning, which revolves around its role in cognition and sense experience.
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Re: DN 2 conclusively details: What is rūpa (form), and a-rūpa in four jhānas context?
As seen on this sketch
https://justpaste.it/img/8b5aab8360db19 ... 2d3961.png
Rūpa takes on the three meanings of the suttas. Namely:
- mahābhūtāna rūpa (fire, water, earth, air).
- upādāya rūpa (The "forms derived" from them [e.g. a tree]).
- bāhirāni āyatanāni rūpa (the "sight" [e.g. of a tree]).
No need for nonsensical philosophaster's maunders and palavers - (and pretensiously dubious references).
Some people just love to put the fish that was in the bowl, back into the ocean — incessantly — one might wonder, what are the intentions behind that?
_______
Oh!, and manasikāra means "turning the mano towards" - (usually towards the yoni: the origin).
"Attention" does not assume the proper meaning of it.
.
.
https://justpaste.it/img/8b5aab8360db19 ... 2d3961.png
Rūpa takes on the three meanings of the suttas. Namely:
- mahābhūtāna rūpa (fire, water, earth, air).
- upādāya rūpa (The "forms derived" from them [e.g. a tree]).
- bāhirāni āyatanāni rūpa (the "sight" [e.g. of a tree]).
No need for nonsensical philosophaster's maunders and palavers - (and pretensiously dubious references).
Some people just love to put the fish that was in the bowl, back into the ocean — incessantly — one might wonder, what are the intentions behind that?
_______
Oh!, and manasikāra means "turning the mano towards" - (usually towards the yoni: the origin).
"Attention" does not assume the proper meaning of it.
.
.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
Re: DN 2 conclusively details: What is rūpa (form), and a-rūpa in four jhānas context?
At least for the OP, DN 2 passages, it is definitely the 4 elements of the meditator's anatomical body. That's why they specifically said "the rupa born of mother and father and porridge".pitithefool wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:18 pm ...
In this case, It would still be the external sense objects, not necessarily just 4 elements. Remember, in the salayatana definitions, rupa actually means "shape" or "form" or "visual object", sepcifically in terms of the eye. We still have mental objects etc. It's also important to point out that birth doesn't happen until after becoming, clinging, craving, and feeling, which all come after nama-rupa. Nama rupa just means subject-object.
...
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
www.audtip.org/audtip: Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
Re: DN 2 conclusively details: What is rūpa (form), and a-rūpa in four jhānas context?
That isn’t what it says at all. It says this kayo is born of mother and father, not this rupa. It makes a distinction between the two.frank k wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:56 pmAt least for the OP, DN 2 passages, it is definitely the 4 elements of the meditator's anatomical body. That's why they specifically said "the rupa born of mother and father and porridge".pitithefool wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:18 pm ...
In this case, It would still be the external sense objects, not necessarily just 4 elements. Remember, in the salayatana definitions, rupa actually means "shape" or "form" or "visual object", sepcifically in terms of the eye. We still have mental objects etc. It's also important to point out that birth doesn't happen until after becoming, clinging, craving, and feeling, which all come after nama-rupa. Nama rupa just means subject-object.
...
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”