Buddhadasa (paticcasamuppada) His comments on the Commentaries

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retrofuturist
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Re: Buddhadasa (paticcasamupadda) His comments on the Commentaries

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
robertk wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:49 am Thanks Paul. Recently you clarified that indeed you accept that the Buddha did teach about the travails of samsara
True, yes. However, I also feel that the three lifetime model does a major disservice to paticcasamuppada, and in doing so, a major disservice to anyone who wants to understand the this-that conditionality (idappaccayatā) which must be understood if anyone wishes to attain stream-entry.

When comparing models of paticcasamuppada we most commonly hear and talk about the nidana that involves jati, and what jati may or may not mean, and we see some of that in the discussion above. However, I feel the gravest injustice is to reduce vinnana to rebirth-linking-consciousness, and to reduce nama-rupa to some kind of arisen "mind and body" pseudo-self.

IMO, the most interesting end of paticcasamuppada is the first half, and to artificially cleave it across two lifetimes, and reduce the aforementioned mutual dependence of vinnana and nama-rupa (and associated Sutta similes, such as the whirlpool, or the two sets of reeds) to something as facile as "past karma caused rebirth-linking consciousness to occur, which created this body with materiality and mentality" is to miss the point so egregiously, that we may as well toss the whole thing in the bin at that point, nevermind what could be said about jati down the track.

The point, if it's not clear, is that it's not about any kind of cosmic kammic transmigration, but that paticcasamuppada is precisely about what it says it's about - dependent arising. Thus, it's about the arising of ignorantly (avijja) fabricated (sankhata) things, and how their arising causes this whole mass of suffering. In cessation mode, it is about how by removing ignorance, there is the cessation of sankharas, which in turn brings the samsaric delusion comes to an end - resulting in nirodha, aka nibbana.

I realise I'm not mincing words here and that won't play well with the genteel who find virtue in public displays of perplexion, but I figured it was good to speak frankly in order to establish the main themes and their significance, as they appear to me. I'm happy to explain any of the above in more detail upon request.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Buddhadasa (paticcasamupadda) His comments on the Commentaries

Post by robertk »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:13 am Greetings,
robertk wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:49 am Thanks Paul. Recently you clarified that indeed you accept that the Buddha did teach about the travails of samsara
True, yes. However, I also feel that the three lifetime model does a major disservice to paticcasamuppada, and in doing so, a major disservice to anyone who wants to understand the this-that conditionality (idappaccayatā) which must be understood if anyone wishes to attain stream-entry.

In reply to this I found an article by Ven. Bodhi which has enough clarifying detail IMHo. Bodhi writes:
The present essay is an attempt to fill that gap. I will be concerned here with only one
note in Ven. Ñāṇavīra‟s collection, his “A Note on Paṭiccasamuppāda.” This note,
however, is the main pillar of Ven. Ñāṇavīra‟s distinctive approach to the Suttas; it is the
first and longest note in the book and the most consistently radical. The Note sounds a
bold challenge to the prevailing “three-life interpretation” of the twelve-factored formula
of dependent arising. The traditional interpretation of this formula, expounded in full
detail in the Visuddhimagga (Chapter XVII), has guided followers of mainstream
Theravāda Buddhism for centuries in their understanding of this most profound and
difficult principle of the Dhamma. Hence a criticism of it that claims to be validated by
the Suttas themselves strikes from within at the very core of the orthodox Theravāda
commentarial tradition.
I must admit I haven't read the note by Nanavira about Paticcasamuppada but it does seem to have some bearing on this topic and Buddhadasa's book. Note that Bodhi is himself rather dismissing of the Commentaries (I have considerably more respect for them). he writes:
The aim of the Commentaries, in their treatment of PS, is to correlate the Suttanta
teaching of PS with the systematic analysis of phenomena and their conditional relations
as found in the Abhidhamma. This results in an explanation of PS that is far more
complex and technical than anything that can be drawn out from the Sutta texts
themselves. I do not think that acceptance of the basic dynamics of the “three-life”
approach entails acceptance of all the details of the commentarial explanation, and I also
believe that the Commentaries take unnecesary risks when they try to read back into the

Suttas ideas deriving from tools of interpretation that appeared perhaps centuries after the
Suttas were compiled.
We must certainly accept the findings of scientific
scholarship regarding the dating of the canonical and post-canonical texts, and should
recognize that Theravāda doctrine has evolved in several strata through the Abhidhamma,
the Commentaries, and the later exegetical works. s
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Re: Buddhadasa (paticcasamupadda) His comments on the Commentaries

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Robert,

Ah yes, the old "Bhikkhu Bodhi argues with the ghost of Nanavira Thera" piece. :D

Thanks for introducing it. I may download it, re-read it and see if I wish to address any of it, time permitting. My recollection of it is that even though he says the above, he still feels compelled to white-knight for a 3 lifetime model nonetheless due to sectarian allegiance, regularly misunderstanding and misrepresenting Nanavira Thera as he goes.

In the meantime though, I will say that what I wrote above about what paticcasamuppada is actually about, is more reflective of the explanations given by Venerable Nanananda than Nanavira Thera, since Nanavira Thera interprets rupa as "matter or substance", whereas Nanananda opts for "form", and says that rupa can only ever be known indirectly as rupasanna (perception of form), and that this perception is as follows...
SN 25.6 wrote:At Savatthi. "Monks, perception of forms is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Perception of sounds... Perception of smells... Perception of tastes... Perception of tactile sensations... Perception of ideas is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."
Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Buddhadasa (paticcasamupadda) His comments on the Commentaries

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In the Vibhanga (book of the Abhidhamma) chapter on Paticcasamuppada.
https://suttacentral.net/vb6/pli/ms
Tattha katamo upapattibhavo?16.2Kāmabhavo, rūpabhavo, arūpabhavo, saññābhavo, asaññābhavo, nevasaññānāsaññābhavo, ekavokārabhavo, catuvokārabhavo, pañcavokārabhavo—16.3ayaṁ vuccati “upapattibhavo”.16.4Ayaṁ vuccati “upādānapaccayā bhavo”.
17.1Tattha katamā bhavapaccayā jāti?17.2Yā tesaṁ tesaṁ sattānaṁ tamhi tamhi sattanikāye jāti sañjāti okkanti abhinibbatti, khandhānaṁ pātubhāvo, āyatanānaṁ paṭilābho—17.3ayaṁ vuccati “bhavapaccayā jāti”.
18.1Tattha katamaṁ jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṁ?18.2Atthi jarā, atthi maraṇaṁ.18.3Tattha katamā jarā?18.4Yā tesaṁ tesaṁ sattānaṁ tamhi tamhi sattanikāye jarā jīraṇatā khaṇḍiccaṁ pāliccaṁ valittacatā āyuno saṁhāni indriyānaṁ paripāko—18.5ayaṁ vuccati “jarā”.
.10. Definition of Continuation
Herein, what is ‘with attachment as condition: continuation?’
Continuation is two-fold: there is continuation through (intentional) deeds, there is continuation through rebirth.
Herein, what is ‘continuation through (intentional) deeds?’
(There is) a meritorious (volitional) process, a demeritorious (volitional) process, an impertubable (volitional) process.
This is said to be ‘continuation through (intentional) deeds’.
All (intentional) deeds leading to continuation is continuation from (intentional) deeds.
Herein, what is ‘continuation through rebirth?’
(There is) continuation in the sense-world spheres, continuation in the form-world spheres, continuation in the formless-world spheres, continuation with perception, continuation without perception, continuation with neither-perception-nor-non-perception, continuation with one constituent, continuation with four constituents, continuation with five constituents.
This is said to be ‘continuation through rebirth’.
Thus, this is continuation through (intentional) deeds, this is continuation through rebirth.
This is said to be ‘with attachment as condition: continuation’.
1.11. Definition of Birth
Herein, what is ‘with continuation as condition: birth?’
For the various beings in the various classes of beings (there is) birth, being born, appearing, arising, turning up, the manifestation of the constituents (of mind and bodily form), the acquisition of the sense spheres.
This is said to be ‘with continuation as condition: birth’.
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Re: Buddhadasa (paticcasamupadda) His comments on the Commentaries

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Paul,
retrofuturist wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:35 am In the meantime though, I will say that what I wrote above about what paticcasamuppada is actually about, is more reflective of the explanations given by Venerable Nanananda than Nanavira Thera, ...
Ven Nananda's take on DO is certainly interesting. Though he argues for a single-lifetime model of Dependent Origination, he does talk about rebirth a lot, and argues that understanding of Dependent Origination is the solution to the problem of samsara.

:heart:
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Re: Buddhadasa (paticcasamuppada) His comments on the Commentaries

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Greetings Mike,

Agreed. He has spoken at length about paticcasamuppada in both The Nibbana Sermons (aka The Mind Stilled) and The Law Of Dependent Arising. These are available to download for free from https://seeingthroughthenet.net/

And as for Nanavira Thera, yes, anyone familiar with the "logic" behind his suicide will also know that he was not opposed to the Buddha's teaching on rebirth either.

By claiming that paticcasamuppada is structural, rather than (multi-lifetime) temporal, neither bhikkhu was denying rebirth... simply being clear that paticcasamuppada is not about rebirth.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Buddhadasa (paticcasamuppada) His comments on the Commentaries

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from the Samyutta Nikaya - with the links of the Paticcasamuppada and over lives.
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.19/en/bodhi
From the Nidana Samyutta
12.19. The Wise Man and the Fool
At Savatthī. “Bhikkhus, for the fool, hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, this body has thereby originated. So there is this body and external name-and-form: thus this dyad. Dependent on the dyad there is contact. There are just six sense bases, contacted through which—or through a certain one among them—the fool experiences pleasure and pain.

“Bhikkhus, for the wise man, hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, this body has thereby originated. So there is this body and external name-and-form: thus this dyad. Dependent on the dyad there is contact. There are just six sense bases, contacted through which—or through a certain one among them—the wise man experiences pleasure and pain. What, bhikkhus, is the distinction here, what is the disparity, what is the difference between the wise man and the fool?”


“Bhikkhus, for the fool, hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, this body has originated. For the fool that ignorance has not been abandoned and that craving has not been utterly destroyed. For what reason? Because the fool has not lived the holy life for the complete destruction of suffering. Therefore, with the breakup of the body, the fool fares on to another body. Faring on to another body, he is not freed from birth, aging, and death; not freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; not freed from suffering, I say.

“Bhikkhus, for the wise man, hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, this body has originated. For the wise man that ignorance has been abandoned and that craving has been utterly destroyed. For what reason? Because the wise man has lived the holy life for the complete destruction of suffering. Therefore, with the breakup of the body, the wise man does not fare on to another body. Not faring on to another body, he is freed from birth, aging, and death; freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; freed from suffering, I say.

“This, bhikkhus, is the distinction, the disparity, the difference between the wise man and the fool, that is, the living of the holy life.”
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Re: Buddhadasa (paticcasamuppada) His comments on the Commentaries

Post by asahi »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:07 am simply being clear that paticcasamuppada is not about rebirth.
What then it is about ?
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Re: Buddhadasa (paticcasamuppada) His comments on the Commentaries

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Greetings asahi,

This was explained above, in the first post on this page, fourth paragraph.

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Re: Buddhadasa (paticcasamuppada) His comments on the Commentaries

Post by asahi »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:42 am
This was explained above, in the first post on this page, fourth paragraph.

:oops:
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Re: Buddhadasa (paticcasamuppada) His comments on the Commentaries

Post by asahi »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:42 am
This was explained above, in the first post on this page, fourth paragraph.

This ?
~ The point, if it's not clear, is that it's not about any kind of cosmic kammic transmigration, but that paticcasamuppada is precisely about what it says it's about - dependent arising. Thus, it's about the arising of ignorantly (avijja) fabricated (sankhata) things, and how their arising causes this whole mass of suffering. In cessation mode, it is about how by removing ignorance, there is the cessation of sankharas, which in turn brings the samsaric delusion comes to an end - resulting in nirodha, aka nibbana.

If so , it doesnt negate rebirth ( reappearance or continuation of five aggregates ) or does it ?
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Re: Buddhadasa (paticcasamuppada) His comments on the Commentaries

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Greetings asahi,

Correct, that's the paragraph, and no it doesn't negate rebirth (hence my earlier reference to tacos)

Mmm... tacos. 🌮

But then, because it isn't about rebirth, one's beliefs about rebirth are immaterial to it. Frankly, I don't think about rebirth because the Buddha taught us to remove both self-view and the "I am" conceit, and these fetters are fuelled by speculative rebirth questions and other such bases of inappropriate attention...
MN 2 wrote:These are the ideas fit for attention that he does not attend to. Through his attending to ideas unfit for attention and through his not attending to ideas fit for attention, both unarisen fermentations arise in him, and arisen fermentations increase.

"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

"As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

"The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma — discerns what ideas are fit for attention and what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas unfit for attention and attends [instead] to ideas fit for attention.
Transmigration models would therefore appear to be unsuited to the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma.

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Re: Buddhadasa (paticcasamuppada) His comments on the Commentaries

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So with any proposition anyone could just chose to explain it (such as jati) as rebirth or not . It doesnt affect the teachings . The Buddha before his gone forth saw birth sickness , aging and death . Surely , death is the ending for him , therefore , physical death still affected him .
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Re: Buddhadasa (paticcasamuppada) His comments on the Commentaries

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Greetings,
asahi wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:04 am So with any proposition anyone could just chose to explain it (such as jati) as rebirth or not . It doesnt affect the teachings .
On the contrary, how one explains jati has a lot to do with the teachings.
asahi wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:04 am Surely , death is the ending for him , therefore , physical death still affected him .
Surely with that fixed mentality, deathlessness will be beyond reach.

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Re: Buddhadasa (paticcasamuppada) His comments on the Commentaries

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retrofuturist wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:06 am
deathlessness will be beyond reach.
That was before Buddha gone forth . And the PS is about origination of suffering , death is one of them . Jati as rebirth can refers to appearance of physicality as well as self identification , they are the twins . Without manifestation of the physical aggregates , self identification would not take birth or come into being .
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