AN 8.63: Lover goes back to the future to file for divorce from Jhāna

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frank k
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AN 8.63: Lover goes back to the future to file for divorce from Jhāna

Post by frank k »

AN 8.63 samadhi in 3 ways, another fatal problem with B. Sujato's translation, you can't do brahma vihara and jhana simultaneously
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Re: AN 8.63: Lover goes back to the future to file for divorce from Jhāna

Post by Ceisiwr »

I will develop [metta ceto vimutti] the heart’s release by love. I’ll cultivate it,

What this instruction sounds like, and it is possible to do in real life, is one should have jhanic quality of samadhi and perform tantric sex for many hours.
:shock:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: AN 8.63: Lover goes back to the future to file for divorce from Jhāna

Post by mikenz66 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:41 pm
I will develop [metta ceto vimutti] the heart’s release by love. I’ll cultivate it,

What this instruction sounds like, and it is possible to do in real life, is one should have jhanic quality of samadhi and perform tantric sex for many hours.
:shock:
Ha! Ha! Yes. Sexual love is only one of many meanings of Love in English: https://www.oed.com/viewdictionaryentry/Entry/110566

Personally, I :heart:Love:heart: the expression "Heart's release by love" :heart:.

I'm afraid that, for me, "Good-will, as my awareness-release development" sounds rather uninspiring.

The Buddha speaks of boundless love for all beings, spreading "a heart full of love to the whole world—abundant, expansive, limitless, free of enmity and ill will."

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Re: AN 8.63: Lover goes back to the future to file for divorce from Jhāna

Post by bhante dhamma »

"..But when you translate an important word in meditation practice (metta, which derives from mitta = 'friend'), it's gross negligence to use a loaded ambiguous word 'love', when the actual practice of metta is unambiguously a platonic friendship, a caring and compassionate family member, neighbor, friend)...'' Agreed that A.Sujato can be careless in his translations/word choice, metta as love is a good example, nice exposition Frank & funny too.
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Re: AN 8.63: Lover goes back to the future to file for divorce from Jhāna

Post by frank k »

mikenz66 wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:23 pm ...
Personally, I :heart:Love:heart: the expression "Heart's release by love" :heart:.

I'm afraid that, for me, "Good-will, as my awareness-release development" sounds rather uninspiring.
...
Hi Mike,
There are lots of ways I'd like to translate certain terms in EBT as well, but I don't bring my biases in because it would be potentially misleading and harmful.
I understand what people like about the word 'love' (in a universal love type of meaning), but your prime directive should be to do no harm first, and then consider the other preferences.

It may seem like a joke (about metta love and tantric sex), but I can almost guarantee someone or many teachers in the future will use that translation to justify tantric metta sex with their students.

Just look at the triratana founder sangharakshita who died recently. He, using a mahayana type of argument to his student, that one should see the emptyness of everything and not be attached or disgusted by sex, talked his heterosexual male student into having sex with him (the homosexual teacher).

Mark my words, if Sujato's translation of metta 'love' becomes the most popular translation, you'll see sex crimes in the future from Theravada teachers, using that translation as justification.

Also, you can study hundreds if not thousands of documented cases where catholic pedophile priest genuinely loved boys under their care, they genuinely had Christ type of love, but they also had their pedophile love conflated in there. And many of them genuinely are surprised the boy victims were traumatized for the rest of their lives, they thought the 'love' was mutual.

In the Chinese Agama trasnslation, the Chinese went to great lengths to distinguish between 'love' and metta/friendliness to make sure this kind of ambiguity isn't in the language.

If you have all of these tragic lessons from history, it's your duty to translate responsibly to make sure these tragedies don't keep on happening.
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Re: AN 8.63: Lover goes back to the future to file for divorce from Jhāna

Post by salayatananirodha »

so, when a mother "loves" her only son and would protect him with her life, what verb do you prefer for that?
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Re: AN 8.63: Lover goes back to the future to file for divorce from Jhāna

Post by salayatananirodha »

ven ñāṇananda calls it deliverance of the heart (cetovimutti) via 'universal love' (mettā) as he did share your concern about lustfulness
its not 'friendliness', frank, you've got that wrong
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Re: AN 8.63: Lover goes back to the future to file for divorce from Jhāna

Post by mikenz66 »

salayatananirodha wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:35 pm ven ñāṇananda calls it deliverance of the heart (cetovimutti) via 'universal love' (mettā)
That's a nice way of putting it.

I certainly am concerned about sexual exploitation. But blaming their behaviour on a translation seems rather far fetched to me.

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Re: AN 8.63: Lover goes back to the future to file for divorce from Jhāna

Post by frank k »

salayatananirodha wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:23 pm so, when a mother "loves" her only son and would protect him with her life, what verb do you prefer for that?
If you're referring to metta sutta,
♦ mātā yathā niyaṃ puttamāyusā ekaputtamanurakkhe.
♦ evampi sabbabhūtesu, mānasaṃ bhāvaye aparimāṇaṃ.
♦ 8.
♦ mettañca sabbalokasmi, mānasaṃ bhāvaye aparimāṇaṃ.


it most definitely does not use the word love. Usually loved family member would say something like 'pema' or 'piya'.

what the passage actually says, (anandajoti trans.)
In the same way as a mother would protect her son, her only son, with her life,
so toward all beings he should develop the measureless thought of friendliness.

People often misinterpret that passage to say something to the effect of, "You should treat every living being in the universe as a mother would love her only son."

What it actually says is you should protect your meditation practice, you should protect and avidly practice the meditation of metta as avidly as a mother would protect her only son.
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Re: AN 8.63: Lover goes back to the future to file for divorce from Jhāna

Post by frank k »

salayatananirodha wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:35 pm ven ñāṇananda calls it deliverance of the heart (cetovimutti) via 'universal love' (mettā) as he did share your concern about lustfulness
its not 'friendliness', frank, you've got that wrong
...
I respect Ven. N, but plenty of other pali scholars do see a connection between mitta and metta.
How would you or I know for sure?

'universal love' is certainly a huge improvement over ambiguous 'love'.
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