Why should we seek Nibbana/Nirwana/Enlightenment?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Rahula
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Why should we seek Nibbana/Nirwana/Enlightenment?

Post by Rahula »

Hello everyone!

Why should we seek Nibbana/Nirwana/Enlightenment?
What is the importance of Nibbana?

As I understood, the reason is to stop suffering through out Sansara/saṃsāra.
We should understand the suffering in our many previous lifetimes, understand that many more suffering is on our way.
Living is mostly suffering. The escape route is the Nibbana.

This is how I understand. Please correct me if I'm missing something.
I want your help to make sure I'm not missing out anything.

Thank you!
May you be happy, healthy & successful in everything you do! :anjali:
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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Why should we seek Nibbana/Nirwana/Enlightenment?

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

"Mahali, if form were exclusively stressful — followed by stress, infused with stress and not infused with pleasure — beings would not be infatuated with form. But because form is also pleasurable — followed by pleasure, infused with pleasure and not infused with stress — beings are infatuated with form. Through infatuation, they are captivated. Through captivation, they are defiled. This is the cause, this the requisite condition, for the defilement of beings. And this is how beings are defiled with cause, with requisite condition.

"Mahali, if form were exclusively pleasurable — followed by pleasure, infused with pleasure and not infused with stress — beings would not be disenchanted with form. But because form is also stressful — followed by stress, infused with stress and not infused with pleasure — beings are disenchanted with form. Through disenchantment, they grow dispassionate. Through dispassion, they are purified. This is the cause, this the requisite condition, for the purification of beings. And this is how beings are purified with cause, with requisite condition.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Motivation to Reach Nibbana
viewtopic.php?p=543367
:anjali:
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Rahula
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Re: Why should we seek Nibbana/Nirwana/Enlightenment?

Post by Rahula »

Lucas Oliveira wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:05 pm
"Mahali, if form were exclusively stressful — followed by stress, infused with stress and not infused with pleasure — beings would not be infatuated with form. But because form is also pleasurable — followed by pleasure, infused with pleasure and not infused with stress — beings are infatuated with form. Through infatuation, they are captivated. Through captivation, they are defiled. This is the cause, this the requisite condition, for the defilement of beings. And this is how beings are defiled with cause, with requisite condition.

"Mahali, if form were exclusively pleasurable — followed by pleasure, infused with pleasure and not infused with stress — beings would not be disenchanted with form. But because form is also stressful — followed by stress, infused with stress and not infused with pleasure — beings are disenchanted with form. Through disenchantment, they grow dispassionate. Through dispassion, they are purified. This is the cause, this the requisite condition, for the purification of beings. And this is how beings are purified with cause, with requisite condition.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Motivation to Reach Nibbana
viewtopic.php?p=543367
:anjali:
:anjali:
May you be happy, healthy & successful in everything you do! :anjali:
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Dan74
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Re: Why should we seek Nibbana/Nirwana/Enlightenment?

Post by Dan74 »

For me, it's more to do with the ending of ignorance and delusion. See through all the narratives and the me and mine to the reality as it is. For everyone's sake, for the ending of suffering.
_/|\_
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Rahula
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Re: Why should we seek Nibbana/Nirwana/Enlightenment?

Post by Rahula »

Dan74 wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:49 pm For me, it's more to do with the ending of ignorance and delusion. See through all the narratives and the me and mine to the reality as it is. For everyone's sake, for the ending of suffering.
:anjali:
May you be happy, healthy & successful in everything you do! :anjali:
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mjaviem
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Re: Why should we seek Nibbana/Nirwana/Enlightenment?

Post by mjaviem »

Rahula wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:14 pm ...
Why should we seek Nibbana/Nirwana/Enlightenment?
...
You should not. But you can seek true peace and true wisdom.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Rahula
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Re: Why should we seek Nibbana/Nirwana/Enlightenment?

Post by Rahula »

mjaviem wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:18 pm
Rahula wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:14 pm ...
Why should we seek Nibbana/Nirwana/Enlightenment?
...
You should not. But you can seek true peace and true wisdom.
I know that if we try and force our mind, Nibbana will be further away. Like in the case of Ananda thero. We have to let go desire for Nibbana also.

But isn't Nibbana the reason we should start following Buddha's teaching?
And try to attain it without having too much desire towards it?
May you be happy, healthy & successful in everything you do! :anjali:
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mjaviem
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Re: Why should we seek Nibbana/Nirwana/Enlightenment?

Post by mjaviem »

Rahula wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:05 am
mjaviem wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:18 pm
Rahula wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:14 pm ...
Why should we seek Nibbana/Nirwana/Enlightenment?
...
You should not. But you can seek true peace and true wisdom.
I know that if we try and force our mind, Nibbana will be further away. Like in the case of Ananda thero. We have to let go desire for Nibbana also.

But isn't Nibbana the reason we should start following Buddha's teaching?
And try to attain it without having too much desire towards it?
I think in the same way everything is void of self there is also a void of reasons. We can build up a reason but there's truly no reason to be found. You can keep acting wrongly and producing unwholesome results. Why not? Law of kamma will be there. Your very existence will be synonym of stress, of non-equilibrium but why not? A seemingly unending existence in an unbearable hell, why not? It's up to you. You can take acting rightly to be the reason but I don't think there's a reason to be found out there.n only your choice, the burden of responsibility is on you.

EDIT: Or alternatively, a seemingly unending existence in a delightful heaven, why not?
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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retrofuturist
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Re: Why should we seek Nibbana/Nirwana/Enlightenment?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Rahula,
Rahula wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:14 pm As I understood, the reason is to stop suffering through out Sansara/saṃsāra.
Yes, but the central problem, is dukkha itself, not saṃsāra. After all, if you could have "wandering on" without dukkha, then that wouldn't really be a problem would it? (mjaviem alludes to this, with their "edit" in the post above this one.)

The Buddha demonstrates that dukkha and its cessation are core to his teaching in the Simsapa Sutta...
SN 56.31 wrote:"And what have I taught? 'This is dukkha... This is the origination of dukkha... This is the cessation of dukkha... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of dukkha': This is what I have taught.
It remains core, unlike peripheral matters which must be pondered and mulled over first, before an appropriate pathway becomes apparent...
MN 60 wrote:"An observant person considers thus: 'As for those venerable contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view — "There is no total cessation of becoming" — I haven't seen that. As for those venerable contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view — "There is total cessation of becoming" — I haven't known that. If I, not knowing, not seeing, were to take one side and declare, "Only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless," that would not be fitting for me.

As for those venerable contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view — "There is no total cessation of becoming": If their statement is true, there's the safe-bet possibility that I might reappear among the perception-made devas of no form. As for those venerable contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view — "There is total cessation of becoming": If their statement is true, it is possible that I will be totally unbound in the here-&-now. As for those venerable contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view — "There is no total cessation of becoming": This view of theirs borders on passion, borders on fettering, borders on relishing, borders on grasping, borders on clinging. As for those venerable contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view — "There is total cessation of becoming": This view of theirs borders on non-passion, borders on non-fettering, borders on non-relishing, borders on non-grasping, borders on non-clinging.' Reflecting thus, he practices for disenchantment toward becomings, for dispassion toward becomings, and for the cessation of becomings.
Rahula wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:14 pm We should understand the suffering in our many previous lifetimes, understand that many more suffering is on our way.
That's a very indirect route that involves a lot of creative imagining, that fails to take advantage of lived experience, here-and-now.

It is easier and more meaningful to extrapolate what is experienced to other situations not experienced/remembered, than it is to extrapolate that which is not experienced/remembered to the here-and-now.
Rahula wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:14 pm This is how I understand. Please correct me if I'm missing something.
I want your help to make sure I'm not missing out anything.
All the best. I hope the above was of some assistance.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
SarathW
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Re: Why should we seek Nibbana/Nirwana/Enlightenment?

Post by SarathW »

Rahula wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:14 pm Hello everyone!

Why should we seek Nibbana/Nirwana/Enlightenment?
What is the importance of Nibbana?

As I understood, the reason is to stop suffering through out Sansara/saṃsāra.
We should understand the suffering in our many previous lifetimes, understand that many more suffering is on our way.
Living is mostly suffering. The escape route is the Nibbana.

This is how I understand. Please correct me if I'm missing something.
I want your help to make sure I'm not missing out anything.

Thank you!
It is hard to say.
It depend on individual person. Many people attract to Buddhism for many reasons.
Once you enter Buddhism due to suffering, you come across other issues like rebirth, kamma-vipaka and Nibbana etc.
I think that the eliminating suffering here and now is the most sensible Nibbana.
All the others we never know and has to be taken with faith.
So it is no different to any other religion.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
pegembara
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Re: Why should we seek Nibbana/Nirwana/Enlightenment?

Post by pegembara »

Because in a world that depends on conditions, there is no permanent solution.
Global warming, wars, ageing, sickness, death, loneliness and so on.
Wealth, fame, health, companionship and many other things we wished for are all dependent on conditions which are impermanent and unsatisfactory.
"Monks, there are these two searches: ignoble search & noble search. And what is ignoble search? There is the case where a person, being subject himself to birth, seeks [happiness in] what is likewise subject to birth. Being subject himself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, he seeks [happiness in] what is likewise subject to illness... death... sorrow... defilement.

"And what may be said to be subject to birth? Spouses & children are subject to birth. Men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver are subject to birth. Subject to birth are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to birth.

"And what may be said to be subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement? Spouses & children... men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver [2] are subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement. Subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement. This is ignoble search.

"And what is the noble search? There is the case where a person, himself being subject to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, seeks the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Himself being subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeks the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, undefiled, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. This is the noble search.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Why should we seek Nibbana/Nirwana/Enlightenment?

Post by whynotme »

Rahula wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:05 am
mjaviem wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:18 pm
Rahula wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:14 pm ...
Why should we seek Nibbana/Nirwana/Enlightenment?
...
You should not. But you can seek true peace and true wisdom.
I know that if we try and force our mind, Nibbana will be further away. Like in the case of Ananda thero. We have to let go desire for Nibbana also.

But isn't Nibbana the reason we should start following Buddha's teaching?
And try to attain it without having too much desire towards it?
This is wrong view, the desire for nibbana is right desire, that is the desire of the bodhisattva to get through 6 years of ascetic. Without it there is no Buddha.

The problem is you think too much. Thinking this is good this is bad... These thinking creates desire by itself, so the thinking of letting go the desire for nibbana is just conflict of your own. It's unnatural.

The nature of the mind is that if it sees something as good, then it will try to get it. And when the mind wants it, trying to pretend that you don't want it is just fooling yourself, forcing yourself.

Just be natural, the desire for good thing is good. It needs for the path, any path. When the goal is reached the desire will stop automatically. Stopping the desire before reaching the goal is like turning off the engine and hoping the car moving forward.

The remain point is that you must examine your goal, is it a good goal? In your case, nibbana is not a good goal, it's just an unreal illustration others put on your mind. It's not beneficial. When you understand real benefit your wrong desire will stop. Do not force yourself because deep down your mind knows something.

Forcing yourself works to some extend but that method is very tired. Know and understand works better. But it's must be knowing from the unconscious, then it's real, otherwise it's just shallow. The desire of the bodhisattva to get nibbana is his whole mind, rooted deeply in his unconscious. Most of the things you think you know are just shallow in your conscious. When your unconscious sees something as good then your mind will be fixed on that goal, it has no doubt of why.

Desire is very normal, even for money, sex... etc. Without desire nothing can be done even eating walking... The problem is what the unconscious mind really sees and desires. If the mind sees money as good then there must be a reason for it. Forcing against your mind is unnatural. The point is understand your unconscious mind rather than fight it.

The suffering is not from desire, but from self view. If you desire something good for others, and your intention is pure, then you can bear many pains easily like when you love someone you can sacrifice many things of yourself without hesitating. The suffering is from I me myself, not desire.

The suffering is often from the conflicting of desires rather than desire itself even for the self. For example you desire nibbana and want to not desire nibbana at the same time, that can't be done. Luckily your desires are not so strong or you'll in big trouble. People suffering because they want to buy things but do not want to lose money. These desires conflict. If they live wholly with one desire then there's no problem at all. Either want to buy then spend to buy, or want to keep then keep money. It's the conflict of desires in unconscious the problem.
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Re: Why should we seek Nibbana/Nirwana/Enlightenment?

Post by whynotme »

Even to practice jhana, the undesire state you must have a desire I will do this, sit down, crossed legs etc... That's desire.

Desire is one of four bases of iddhipada, to get samadhi. The problem is you get wrong desire rather than desire itself.
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Rahula
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Re: Why should we seek Nibbana/Nirwana/Enlightenment?

Post by Rahula »

retrofuturist wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:25 am Greetings Rahula,
Rahula wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:14 pm As I understood, the reason is to stop suffering through out Sansara/saṃsāra.
Yes, but the central problem, is dukkha itself, not saṃsāra. After all, if you could have "wandering on" without dukkha, then that wouldn't really be a problem would it? (mjaviem alludes to this, with their "edit" in the post above this one.)

The Buddha demonstrates that dukkha and its cessation are core to his teaching in the Simsapa Sutta...
SN 56.31 wrote:"And what have I taught? 'This is dukkha... This is the origination of dukkha... This is the cessation of dukkha... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of dukkha': This is what I have taught.
It remains core, unlike peripheral matters which must be pondered and mulled over first, before an appropriate pathway becomes apparent...
MN 60 wrote:"An observant person considers thus: 'As for those venerable contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view — "There is no total cessation of becoming" — I haven't seen that. As for those venerable contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view — "There is total cessation of becoming" — I haven't known that. If I, not knowing, not seeing, were to take one side and declare, "Only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless," that would not be fitting for me.

As for those venerable contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view — "There is no total cessation of becoming": If their statement is true, there's the safe-bet possibility that I might reappear among the perception-made devas of no form. As for those venerable contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view — "There is total cessation of becoming": If their statement is true, it is possible that I will be totally unbound in the here-&-now. As for those venerable contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view — "There is no total cessation of becoming": This view of theirs borders on passion, borders on fettering, borders on relishing, borders on grasping, borders on clinging. As for those venerable contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view — "There is total cessation of becoming": This view of theirs borders on non-passion, borders on non-fettering, borders on non-relishing, borders on non-grasping, borders on non-clinging.' Reflecting thus, he practices for disenchantment toward becomings, for dispassion toward becomings, and for the cessation of becomings.
Rahula wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:14 pm We should understand the suffering in our many previous lifetimes, understand that many more suffering is on our way.
That's a very indirect route that involves a lot of creative imagining, that fails to take advantage of lived experience, here-and-now.

It is easier and more meaningful to extrapolate what is experienced to other situations not experienced/remembered, than it is to extrapolate that which is not experienced/remembered to the here-and-now.
Rahula wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:14 pm This is how I understand. Please correct me if I'm missing something.
I want your help to make sure I'm not missing out anything.
All the best. I hope the above was of some assistance.

Metta,
Paul. :)
:anjali:

This is really helpful, I will take time and go through this. Thank you!
May you be happy, healthy & successful in everything you do! :anjali:
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Rahula
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Re: Why should we seek Nibbana/Nirwana/Enlightenment?

Post by Rahula »

whynotme wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:53 am
Rahula wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:05 am
mjaviem wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:18 pm
You should not. But you can seek true peace and true wisdom.
I know that if we try and force our mind, Nibbana will be further away. Like in the case of Ananda thero. We have to let go desire for Nibbana also.

But isn't Nibbana the reason we should start following Buddha's teaching?
And try to attain it without having too much desire towards it?
This is wrong view, the desire for nibbana is right desire, that is the desire of the bodhisattva to get through 6 years of ascetic. Without it there is no Buddha.

The problem is you think too much. Thinking this is good this is bad... These thinking creates desire by itself, so the thinking of letting go the desire for nibbana is just conflict of your own. It's unnatural.

The nature of the mind is that if it sees something as good, then it will try to get it. And when the mind wants it, trying to pretend that you don't want it is just fooling yourself, forcing yourself.

Just be natural, the desire for good thing is good. It needs for the path, any path. When the goal is reached the desire will stop automatically. Stopping the desire before reaching the goal is like turning off the engine and hoping the car moving forward.

The remain point is that you must examine your goal, is it a good goal? In your case, nibbana is not a good goal, it's just an unreal illustration others put on your mind. It's not beneficial. When you understand real benefit your wrong desire will stop. Do not force yourself because deep down your mind knows something.

Forcing yourself works to some extend but that method is very tired. Know and understand works better. But it's must be knowing from the unconscious, then it's real, otherwise it's just shallow. The desire of the bodhisattva to get nibbana is his whole mind, rooted deeply in his unconscious. Most of the things you think you know are just shallow in your conscious. When your unconscious sees something as good then your mind will be fixed on that goal, it has no doubt of why.

Desire is very normal, even for money, sex... etc. Without desire nothing can be done even eating walking... The problem is what the unconscious mind really sees and desires. If the mind sees money as good then there must be a reason for it. Forcing against your mind is unnatural. The point is understand your unconscious mind rather than fight it.

The suffering is not from desire, but from self view. If you desire something good for others, and your intention is pure, then you can bear many pains easily like when you love someone you can sacrifice many things of yourself without hesitating. The suffering is from I me myself, not desire.

The suffering is often from the conflicting of desires rather than desire itself even for the self. For example you desire nibbana and want to not desire nibbana at the same time, that can't be done. Luckily your desires are not so strong or you'll in big trouble. People suffering because they want to buy things but do not want to lose money. These desires conflict. If they live wholly with one desire then there's no problem at all. Either want to buy then spend to buy, or want to keep then keep money. It's the conflict of desires in unconscious the problem.
Thanks for your comment but it seems you didn't understand my point. Maybe I was not very clear in my writing.
May you be happy, healthy & successful in everything you do! :anjali:
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