Paṭiccasamuppāda and idappaccayatā, as presented in the Sutta Pitaka

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
BrokenBones
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Re: Paṭiccasamuppāda and idappaccayatā, as presented in the Sutta Pitaka

Post by BrokenBones »

Does the following sutta have any bearing on you fine gentlemen's debate?

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el277.html

I can't say I'm overly interested in the debate itself... I'm more tied up with remedying the five hindrances... then maybe I can see things more clearly for myself 😉
plabit
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Re: The case that dependent origination in the Suttas refers to Rebirth is very strong.

Post by plabit »

chownah wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:13 am Each person who reads or studies dependent origination comes to a view on it based on their understandings and expectations based on their own unique past experiences. Since the veiws they develop are based on their experiencee they hold these views in the only context they have that being past experience. Everyone considers their views to be strongly supported......so.....a person who sees rebirth in dependent origination will feel that it is strongly presented there.....and.....those who see something else in dependent origination will see that something else strongly presented there.
Only those who see its about rebirtn are right. The last of the 12 links is literally birth. Any other explanation than that it is trying to explain WHY a person is rebiorn and to give a chain of abstract concepts that lead to birth....Lets just say this, the other view is essentially that there is a God named Paticcasamuppada who created the universe and the 12 links are a doxology praising him. There are these two interpretations of Paticcasamuppada, and no more.
Srilankaputra
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Re: Buddhadasa (paticcasamupadda) His comments on the Commentaries

Post by Srilankaputra »

retrofuturist wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:24 am
Srilankaputra wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:07 am The teaching on three life times is just one 'naya' (viewpoint) out of number of other 'naya' on the twelve link dependant origination.
All these different 'naya', brings out different aspects of the meta-principle of dependant-origination. Above all they are teaching or expository devices.
I assume this is Commentarial / Abhidhamma in nature, as opposed to something found in the Suttas?
To illustrate further, what I meant by 'naya' ; the same meaning can be found in the following stock sutta passage.

As if he were righting the overturned, or revealing the hidden, or pointing out the path to the lost, or lighting a lamp in the dark so people with good eyes can see what’s there, Master Gotama has made the teaching clear in many ways.

Seyyathāpi, bho gotama, nikkujjitaṁ vā ukkujjeyya, paṭicchannaṁ vā vivareyya, mūḷhassa vā maggaṁ ācikkheyya, andhakāre vā telapajjotaṁ dhāreyya: ‘cakkhumanto rūpāni dakkhantī’ti; evamevaṁ bhotā gotamena anekapariyāyena dhammo pakāsito.
Here are some different pariyāya on Dependant Origination.
Bhikkhus, this saṁsara is without discoverable beginning. A first point is not discerned of beings roaming and wandering on hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving.

Anamataggoyaṁ, bhikkhave, saṁsāro. Pubbā koṭi na paññāyati avijjānīvaraṇānaṁ sattānaṁ taṇhāsaṁyojanānaṁ sandhāvataṁ saṁsarataṁ.
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.99/en/bodhi

From the Dvayatānupassanā Sutta;
Whatever stress comes into play is all from ignorance as a requisite condition': this is one contemplation. 'From the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance, there is no coming into play of stress': this is a second contemplation.

Those who journey the wandering-on
through birth & death, again & again,
in this state here
or anywhere else,
that destination is simply through ignorance.
This ignorance is a great delusion
whereby they have wandered-on
a long, long time.
While beings immersed in clear knowing
don't go to further becoming.

Yaṁ kiñci dukkhaṁ sambhoti sabbaṁ avijjāpaccayāti, ayamekānupassanā. Avijjāya tveva asesavirāganirodhā natthi dukkhassa sambhavoti, ayaṁ dutiyānupassanā.

Jātimaraṇasaṁsāraṁ,
ye vajanti punappunaṁ;
Itthabhāvaññathābhāvaṁ,
avijjāyeva sā gati.

Avijjā hāyaṁ mahāmoho,
Yenidaṁ saṁsitaṁ ciraṁ;
Vijjāgatā ca ye sattā,
Na te gacchanti punabbhavanti.
Whatever stress comes into play is all from craving as a requisite condition': this is one contemplation. 'From the remainderless fading & cessation of that very craving, there is no coming into play of stress': this is a second contemplation.

With craving his companion, a man
wanders on a long, long time.
Neither in this state here
nor anywhere else
does he go beyond
the wandering- on.
Knowing this drawback —
that craving brings stress into play —
free from craving,
devoid of clinging,
mindful, the monk
lives the wandering life.

Yaṁ kiñci dukkhaṁ sambhoti sabbaṁ taṇhāpaccayāti, ayamekānupassanā. Taṇhāya tveva asesavirāganirodhā natthi dukkhassa sambhavoti, ayaṁ dutiyānupassanā

Taṇhādutiyo puriso,
Dīghamaddhāna saṁsaraṁ;
Itthabhāvaññathābhāvaṁ,
Saṁsāraṁ nātivattati.

Etamādīnavaṁ ñatvā,
Taṇhaṁ dukkhassa sambhavaṁ;
Vītataṇho anādāno,
Sato bhikkhu paribbajeti.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
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DooDoot
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Re: Paṭiccasamuppāda and idappaccayatā, as presented in the Sutta Pitaka

Post by DooDoot »

mikenz66 wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:27 pm As one of our former Prime Ministers said, every time a Kiwi migrates to Australia the average IQ in both countries goes up...
Good one. :D
Srilankaputra wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:22 am Here are some different pariyāya on Dependant Origination.
What was posted sounded like mannati (imagining) rather than pariyāya. It appears similar to Eco Care & SarathW, your post appears to be a type of "patriotic rote learning".
Rote learning is a memorization technique based on repetition. The idea is that one will be able to quickly recall the meaning of the material the more one repeats it. Some of the alternatives to rote learning include meaningful learning, associative learning, and active learning [plus yoniso manasikara].

Rote learning - Wikipedia
:alien:
Srilankaputra wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:22 amHere are some different pariyāya on Dependant Origination.
Bhikkhus, this saṁsara is without discoverable beginning. A first point is not discerned of beings roaming and wandering on hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving.

Anamataggoyaṁ, bhikkhave, saṁsāro. Pubbā koṭi na paññāyati avijjānīvaraṇānaṁ sattānaṁ taṇhāsaṁyojanānaṁ sandhāvataṁ saṁsarataṁ.
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.99/en/bodhi
The pariyāya (clear teaching) in the above sutta is the following rather than the vague teaching you posted that you appear to imagine (mannati) things about:
Samsara wrote:“Suppose, bhikkhus, a dog tied up on a leash was bound to a strong post or pillar: it would just keep on running and revolving around that same post or pillar. So too, the uninstructed worldling … regards form as self … feeling as self … perception as self … volitional formations as self … consciousness as self…. He just keeps running and revolving around form, around feeling, around perception, around volitional formations, around consciousness. As he keeps on running and revolving around them, he is not freed from form, not freed from feeling, not freed from perception, not freed from volitional formations, not freed from consciousness. He is not freed from birth, aging, and death; not freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; not freed from suffering, I say.
It appears u did not read more than one sentence in SN 22.99 and in particular did not read or discern the Heartwood.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Buddhadasa (paticcasamuppada) His comments on the Commentaries

Post by Ceisiwr »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:39 pm
Jati is not that, because it is a fabrication, resulting from ignorance. With the cessation of ignorance, sankharas end, and an arahant may rightly say that "jati has ended", and they will know amata (deathless), marananirodha (the cessation of death).

Anything which is “objectively extant” like a rock, planet or a physical body would not be made to cease by virtue of the cessation of ignorance. It could not be nirodha-ed.
I am still somewhat confused here. You seem to be using "objectively extant" to mean "external and existing thing which is independent from mind" which you class as external objects such as rocks etc. I'm confused because jati is obviously not an "object" but rather a process. What has ceased is the process of taking birth. That is to say, of intending towards objects of the senses based on craving and attachment at death. At the moment of death, this intention establishes consciousness back in the abodes of vision & forms etc but in another life.
Not really. Even a child can understand than one who is born will die. As my Dad said recently, the probably of that occurring is 1.

That, however, is not understanding idappaccayatā.
The false dichotomy was "this or causality". Regarding idappaccayatā, anyone can recite the words but understanding is a different thing. A chid can recite E=MC2, understanding it is a different thing entirely.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Buddhadasa (paticcasamuppada) His comments on the Commentaries

Post by Ceisiwr »

nmjojola wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:41 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:32 pm Analytical reasoning. That’s how it’s knowledge.
Sure, it’s a type of (theoretical) knowledge, but not one which partakes of (reflexive) certainty (that is, outside of the certainty that one directly knows [reflexively] that they have inferred or deducted a theoretical conclusion).
Analytical knowledge is certain knowledge.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
nmjojola
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Re: Buddhadasa (paticcasamuppada) His comments on the Commentaries

Post by nmjojola »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:46 am
nmjojola wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:41 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:32 pm Analytical reasoning. That’s how it’s knowledge.
Sure, it’s a type of (theoretical) knowledge, but not one which partakes of (reflexive) certainty (that is, outside of the certainty that one directly knows [reflexively] that they have inferred or deducted a theoretical conclusion).
Analytical knowledge is certain knowledge.
Regarding your statement:
Through the trigger of “Everything that arises has a cessation” one can analytically arrive at the the 1st 3 Noble Truths and so dependent origination.
(underline added by me for emphasis)

It seems "one can analytically arrive at" means logical deduction, does it not? Or am I misunderstanding?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Buddhadasa (paticcasamuppada) His comments on the Commentaries

Post by Ceisiwr »

nmjojola wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:21 pm
Regarding your statement:

"Through the trigger of “Everything that arises has a cessation” one can analytically arrive at the the 1st 3 Noble Truths and so dependent origination. (underline added by me for emphasis)"

It seems "one can analytically arrive at" means logical deduction, does it not? Or am I misunderstanding?
Deduction is certainly part of it:

“yaṁ kiñci samudayadhammaṁ sabbaṁ taṁ nirodhadhamman”ti.
"Whatever has the nature of arising, all that has the nature of cessation"


Analytically to say something has ceased is to say it had a beginning, which is the same as saying everything which arises has a nature to cease. From this insight it logically follow that the 5 aggregates are unsatisfactory:

If P, then Q.
P.
Therefore, Q.


If impermanent then unsatisfactory.
The 5 aggregates are impermanent.
Therefore, they are unsatisfactory.

If unsatisfactory then painful to cling to.
The 5 aggregates are unsatisfactory.
Therefore, they are painful to cling to.


Analytically it follows that if there is clinging there must be craving as condition, since it is contradictory to cling without craving. This is the 2nd Noble Truth. From the 2nd Noble Truth it follows that if craving is a condition for clinging, then the cessation of craving is the condition for the cessation of clinging.

If P, then Q.
Not Q.
Therefore, not P.


If craving then clinging.
Not clinging.
Therefore, not craving.

If clinging then suffering.
Not clinging.
Therefore, not suffering.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Dhammavamsa
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Re: Buddhadasa (paticcasamuppada) His comments on the Commentaries

Post by Dhammavamsa »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:07 pm
nmjojola wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:21 pm
Regarding your statement:

"Through the trigger of “Everything that arises has a cessation” one can analytically arrive at the the 1st 3 Noble Truths and so dependent origination. (underline added by me for emphasis)"

It seems "one can analytically arrive at" means logical deduction, does it not? Or am I misunderstanding?
Deduction is certainly part of it:

“yaṁ kiñci samudayadhammaṁ sabbaṁ taṁ nirodhadhamman”ti.
"Whatever has the nature of arising, all that has the nature of cessation"


Analytically to say something has ceased is to say it had a beginning, which is the same as saying everything which arises has a nature to cease. From this insight it logically follow that the 5 aggregates are unsatisfactory:

If P, then Q.
P.
Therefore, Q.


If impermanent then unsatisfactory.
The 5 aggregates are impermanent.
Therefore, they are unsatisfactory.

If unsatisfactory then painful to cling to.
The 5 aggregates are unsatisfactory.
Therefore, they are painful to cling to.


Analytically it follows that if there is clinging there must be craving as condition, since it is contradictory to cling without craving. This is the 2nd Noble Truth. From the 2nd Noble Truth it follows that if craving is a condition for clinging, then the cessation of craving is the condition for the cessation of clinging.

If P, then Q.
Not Q.
Therefore, not P.


If craving then clinging.
Not clinging.
Therefore, not craving.

If clinging then suffering.
Not clinging.
Therefore, not suffering.
:goodpost:
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DooDoot
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Re: Buddhadasa (paticcasamuppada) His comments on the Commentaries

Post by DooDoot »

Dhammavamsa wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 6:34 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:07 pm If craving then clinging.
Not clinging.
Therefore, not craving.

If clinging then suffering.
Not clinging.
Therefore, not suffering.
:goodpost:
Ceisiwr has not explained:

If clinging then existence (bhava).
If existence then rebirth (jati).

How does clinging & existence cause reincarnation? :shrug:

Why is one reincarnation called "jati" and another reincarnation called "re-linking consciousness" ("patisandhi-vinnana)? :shrug:
SN 12.2 wrote:And what is rebirth?

Katamā ca, bhikkhave, jāti?

The rebirth, inception, conception, reincarnation, manifestation of the aggregates and acquisition of the sense fields of the various sentient beings in the various orders of sentient beings.

Yā tesaṁ tesaṁ sattānaṁ tamhi tamhi sattanikāye jāti sañjāti okkanti abhinibbatti khandhānaṁ pātubhāvo āyatanānaṁ paṭilābho.

This is called rebirth.

Ayaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave, jāti

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/sujato
:roll:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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