Paṭiccasamuppāda and idappaccayatā, as presented in the Sutta Pitaka

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chownah
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Re: The case that dependent origination in the Suttas refers to Rebirth is very strong.

Post by chownah »

Each person who reads or studies dependent origination comes to a view on it based on their understandings and expectations based on their own unique past experiences. Since the veiws they develop are based on their experiencee they hold these views in the only context they have that being past experience. Everyone considers their views to be strongly supported......so.....a person who sees rebirth in dependent origination will feel that it is strongly presented there.....and.....those who see something else in dependent origination will see that something else strongly presented there.

I think the best thing is to realize that we do not fully understand all that the buddha teaches and so it is best to hold our views lightly while continuing to study and refine our understanding of the buddha's teachings realizing that we all start from different places so our paths to the goal will be different.
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robertk
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Re: The case that dependent origination in the Suttas refers to Rebirth is very strong.

Post by robertk »

a related discussion
Buddhadasa (paticcasamuppada) His comments on the Commentaries

is here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=39913
ToVincent
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Re: The case that dependent origination in the Suttas refers to Rebirth is very strong.

Post by ToVincent »

Paṭiccasamuppāda

The conundrum is in the "hoti".

hū or bhū ? - that is the question.

(hū = √ hve)

viewtopic.php?p=606178#p606178

Yathā-bhūta (according to - [how things] have come to be), requires to know the HOW.

Retrofuturist is right in saying that the initial cause is (always) ignorance.
May I add, on the macro (avijjā nidāna) and micro level (SN 22.47 https://justpaste.it/vyhx).

The ensuing conditions (or causes - (who cares about petty philosophastering) ), are just there to feed(back) ignorance with knowledge.
The ultimate knowledge, being that this paṭiccasamuppāda is just about dukkha - and that one should get, not only the hell out of it (one's hell) - but out of it proper.
.
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
nmjojola
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Re: Buddhadasa (paticcasamuppada) His comments on the Commentaries

Post by nmjojola »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:09 pm When someone...has had the appropriate experiential trigger they come to understand....Such an understanding...does not depend upon experience.
This is utter confusion.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Buddhadasa (paticcasamuppada) His comments on the Commentaries

Post by Ceisiwr »

nmjojola wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:28 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:09 pm When someone...has had the appropriate experiential trigger they come to understand....Such an understanding...does not depend upon experience.
This is utter confusion.
Please do explain how.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
nmjojola
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Re: Buddhadasa (paticcasamuppada) His comments on the Commentaries

Post by nmjojola »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:44 am Please do explain how.
The statement contradicts itself, by proclaiming an understanding independent of experience (a claim which begs its own questions, but nonetheless) yet is "came to" from (an) experience:

"When someone...has had the appropriate experiential trigger they come to understand....Such an understanding...does not depend upon experience"

(Underlines added by me for emphasis)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Buddhadasa (paticcasamuppada) His comments on the Commentaries

Post by Ceisiwr »

nmjojola wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:12 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:44 am Please do explain how.
The statement contradicts itself, by proclaiming an understanding independent of experience (a claim which begs its own questions, but nonetheless) yet is "came to" from (an) experience:

"When someone...has had the appropriate experiential trigger they come to understand....Such an understanding...does not depend upon experience"

(Underlines added by me for emphasis)
It’s the justification which is a priori, not the origin of the concepts. That’s what analytic a priori refers to. Through the trigger of “Everything that arises has a cessation” one can analytically arrive at the the 1st 3 Noble Truths and so dependent origination.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
asahi
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Re: The case that dependent origination in the Suttas refers to Rebirth is very strong.

Post by asahi »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:20 am MN 44 also says "bhava" is the condition for "identity" ("sakkaya"). Therefore, it might be possible "jati" is synonymous with "sakkaya". :shrug:
This cannot be . Bhava is not sakkaya . As you frequently said , why would the Buddha
refer to similar happenings but using different words .

 jati'
 'ponobbhavikā' and 'punabbhavo'
 'abhinibbatti'
 'opapātikā'
 'paccājāyati'/'paccājāto'
 'upapannā'/'upapajjati'/'upapatti'

How do you relate bhava (as identity) to jati (as birth of views) and to aging death (of views) ?


And what is rebirth?

Katamā ca, bhikkhave, jāti?

The rebirth, inception, conception, reincarnation, manifestation of the aggregates, and acquisition of the sense fields of the various sentient beings in the various orders of sentient beings.

Yā tesaṁ tesaṁ sattānaṁ tamhi tamhi sattanikāye jāti sañjāti okkanti abhinibbatti khandhānaṁ pātubhāvo āyatanānaṁ paṭilābho.

This is called rebirth.

Ayaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave, jāti.
Last edited by asahi on Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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nmjojola
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Re: Buddhadasa (paticcasamuppada) His comments on the Commentaries

Post by nmjojola »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:16 pm Through the trigger of “Everything that arises has a cessation” one can analytically arrive at the the 1st 3 Noble Truths and so dependent origination.
In other words, inference or deduction (rationalization). (The question of non-experiential understanding aside)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Buddhadasa (paticcasamuppada) His comments on the Commentaries

Post by Ceisiwr »

nmjojola wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:27 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:16 pm Through the trigger of “Everything that arises has a cessation” one can analytically arrive at the the 1st 3 Noble Truths and so dependent origination.
In other words, inference and rationalization. (The question of non-experiential understanding aside)
Analytical reasoning. That’s how it’s knowledge.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
nmjojola
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Re: Buddhadasa (paticcasamuppada) His comments on the Commentaries

Post by nmjojola »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:32 pm Analytical reasoning. That’s how it’s knowledge.
Sure, it’s a type of (theoretical) knowledge, but not one which partakes of (reflexive) certainty (that is, outside of the certainty that one directly knows [reflexively] that they have inferred or deducted a theoretical conclusion).
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DooDoot
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Re: The case that dependent origination in the Suttas refers to Rebirth is very strong.

Post by DooDoot »

asahi wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:26 pm This cannot be . Bhava is not sakkaya .
MN 44 says bhava is the origination of sakkaya. Also, "jati" does not mean "rebirth". Why do you keep posting the false translations of Sujato? :shrug:
MN 44 wrote:The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming: This, friend Visakha, is the origination of self-identification (sakkaya) described by the Blessed One."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:alien:
asahi wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:26 pm This cannot be . Bhava is not sakkaya . As you frequently said , why would the Buddha
refer to similar happenings but using different words .

 jati'
 'ponobbhavikā' and 'punabbhavo'
 'abhinibbatti'
 'opapātikā'
 'paccājāyati'/'paccājāto'
 'upapannā'/'upapajjati'/'upapatti'
I never said bhava is sakkaya. I said jati may be synonymous with sakkaya.

Sakkaya i do not know the origin of. It may be a word before the Buddha. I may not be. The Buddha taught 'sakkaya' is to take the five aggregates to be the "true or real self" (MN 44).

"Jati" is the "birth" of a "category of beings ("satanam-nikaye"; SN 12.2); where each category of beings includes the "manifestation of their aggregates" and the "acquisition of their sense objects" (SN 12.12).

Therefore, sakkaya appears to refer to how a person or mind ignorantly regards itself as a "real self".

"Jati" appears it might be about how the mind ignorantly categories & "produces" ("abhinibbatti") views of various "beings", both internally & externally. For example, you may see a set of five aggregates manifesting with greedy mind acquiring sense objects of money. You categorise those five aggregates as a "businessman" or "Capitalist". This categorisation, born of attachment, makes you angry because you categorise yourself as a "Social Justice Warrior". Therefore, suffering arises because the mind creates views of various "beings" internally & externally.

Since i offered a detailed explanation of my opinion or theory, why don't you provide a similar explanation of your trite opinion below. Thanks
the Buddha refer to similar happenings but using different words

 jati'
 'ponobbhavikā' and 'punabbhavo'
 'abhinibbatti'
 'opapātikā'
 'paccājāyati'/'paccājāto'
 'upapannā'/'upapajjati'/'upapatti'
What do the above words mean? :shrug: How & why would the Buddha use such words? :shrug: What makes the words different; even though the happenings are similar? :shrug: In which suttas are they found? :shrug: What is the meaning that can be derived or theorized from these suttas? :shrug: Thanks :thanks:
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DooDoot
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Re: Paṭiccasamuppāda and idappaccayatā, as presented in the Sutta Pitaka

Post by DooDoot »

mikenz66 wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:48 pm Perhaps the solution is that understanding comes from knowledge from experience, not from committing to definitions. Those definitions are obviously helpful in walking the path, but they are clearly not the goal.
From direct meditative insight knowledge, it is known what Paṭiccasamuppāda actually is (which will be considered as a type of idappaccayatā but not idappaccayatā itself).

For example, a prostitute understands the idappaccayatā or the results or effects of displaying her best assets (namely, the idappaccayatā of how to make money) but this prostitute unlikely understands Paṭiccasamuppāda (the idappaccayatā about how dukkha arises).

Einstein & Oppenheimer understood the idappaccayatā about how to make atomic bombs. But they didn't know the idappaccayatā called Paṭiccasamuppāda.

New Zealanders understand the idappaccayatā about how to make cheese, grow kiwi fruit and emigrate to Australia but they generally don't know the idappaccayatā called Paṭiccasamuppāda.

:smile:
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ToVincent
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Re: Paṭiccasamuppāda and idappaccayatā, as presented in the Sutta Pitaka

Post by ToVincent »

The noob will put his unsure knowledge everywhere - trying to make sense about it, through trial and errors — which can be pretty embarassing, both for him and his reader.

The philosophaster versed in the Humean out-of-date philosophy, will put analytical a priori almost everywhere.

""Everything that arises has a cessation” - one can analytically arrive at the the first and third Noble Truths, AND SO dependent origination", says the philosophaster.

Well, if "Everything that arises has a cessation” (aka the second law of thermodynamics), is the analytical a priori truth of dukkha - I certainly doubt about the "AND SO" that ensues, about paticcasamuppada.

The same way that math science is about the "what" - and computing science is about the "how".
Two different things - (related somewhere, somehow).

-----

Beware (generally) of the affirmative conclusions from a negative premise - and also, in our case, of the too often fallacies of necessity.
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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mikenz66
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Re: Paṭiccasamuppāda and idappaccayatā, as presented in the Sutta Pitaka

Post by mikenz66 »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:16 pm New Zealanders understand the idappaccayatā about how to make cheese, grow kiwi fruit and emigrate to Australia but they generally don't know the idappaccayatā called Paṭiccasamuppāda.
:smile:
As one of our former Prime Ministers said, every time a Kiwi migrates to Australia the average IQ in both countries goes up...
:sage:
Mike
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