Greetings Ceisiwr,
Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:44 pm
Ah I see. You do not view the 2nd link as containing intentions. Would that be a fair summary of your position?
Ignorance (avijja) gives rise to all manner of fabrications (sankhara), including but not restricted to cetana (intentions) that relate to fabrications.
More broadly, there will be the whirlpool of nama-rupa and vinnana until you become an arahant, so I would not be concerned about repetition in the explanation of the nidanas, other than endeavouring to bring an end to it, in practice.
Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:44 pm
Idappaccayatā refers to the logical principle, yes. Insight is understanding that logical principle in terms of the links two concepts at a time, for example birth and death.
Yes.
Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:44 pmVery often, perhaps every time (its been a while since I checked), the understanding arises after reflecting on the reverse order. In other words, understanding that logically in order to have died one must have first been born. This is then applied to all of the concepts in a stepwise manner. Since this is an understanding in terms of logical necessity it can be understood in terms of all links even when all links are not present or currently being experienced.
That step-wise manner is fine, so long as the terms are understood correctly, and there are no mis-steps. Otherwise, someone overlapping falsely understood concepts over their actual experiences will not help, and will only be an exercise in papanca.
As you know, that step-wise manner was applied by the Buddha and it went back to the nama-rupa/vinnana vortex. There isn't anything preceding that other than the precondition of dependence (sankhara) and its precondition of not-understanding (avijja)... but it's in that whirlpool where fabricated things are initially constructed, before being kicked down the nidanas.
Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:44 pmThis is why I do not see a contradiction between the 3 lives model and dependent origination.
I'd say it's
not for that reason that there is an issue with the 3-lives-model. The issues are other than that, and some have been articulated in the conversation to date.
Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:44 pmSomeone does no have to die to understand the link between birth and death in terms of idappaccayatā.
However, one does need to understand that jati and marana are fabrications, dependent upon avijja (rather than being objectively extant) in order to understand the link in terms of idappaccayatā. Otherwise one is only understanding mundane linear causality.
Maybe spend a few minutes mulling over that paragraph.
Metta,
Paul.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."