Cuti Citta as Buddhism in a Nutshell

[Rahula]

Can 'Cuti Citta' - the last-thought-moment, be considered as Buddhism in a Nutshell.

I have an understanding like follows, please let me know your opinion.

Cuti Citta is mentioned throughout suttas. It is considered as one of the main things related to rebirth.
If someone can control this, he/she will not get attached to any thoughts at the final moment of life.
As a result, he/she will not go to another life. Isn't this what happens with an Arhath?

Arhaths has no desire, they have full control over their mind. So at the last moment of life, at Cuti Citta, they don't get attached to anything. The thought process doesn't get a chance to continue. Mind as we know it, just stops. Similar to the flame just vanish when the oil is over.

Isn't the whole purpose of Buddhism is training our mind for this last moment?
As, controlling this moment is the most important thing to stop rebirth.

Isn't what we practise through 8 fold path leads to this moment?
Isn't meditation and Jahans condition our mind for this moment?
Isn't Nibbana means the ability to control Cuti Citta?

If so, can't we describe Buddhism in a Nutshell as the ability to control someones last moment thought, called Cuti Citta. As when someone can control Cuti Citta, he/she doesn't go for a rebirth, thus ending Samsara, the endless suffering, Dhukka.

Please share your opinion.

[DNS]

No, last thought moment is not the summum bonum of Buddhism. It may be important, but not the goal. I think there are some practices like that in Vajrayana Buddhism, but not Theravada.

What matters is your whole life (thoughts, deeds, actions, meditation), not one distinct final moment.

[Rahula]

No, last thought moment is not the summum bonum of Buddhism. It may be important, but not the goal. I think there are some practices like that in Vajrayana Buddhism, but not Theravada.

What matters is your whole life (thoughts, deeds, actions, meditation), not one distinct final moment.

My understanding is that it takes a whole lifetime and more for just practicing for the moment. It is not one distinct final moment, but the life process practicing towards it. It is a whole life (thoughts, deeds, actions, meditation) process. That's how I understand.

[pegembara]

Cuti Citta is mentioned throughout suttas. It is considered as one of the main things related to rebirth.
If someone can control this, he/she will not get attached to any thoughts at the final moment of life.
As a result, he/she will not go to another life. Isn't this what happens with an Arhath?

Arhaths has no desire, they have full control over their mind. So at the last moment of life, at Cuti Citta, they don't get attached to anything. The thought process doesn't get a chance to continue. Mind as we know it, just stops. Similar to the flame just vanish when the oil is over.

Isn't the whole purpose of Buddhism is training our mind for this last moment?
As, controlling this moment is the most important thing to stop rebirth.

The arahant is not attached to anything simply because they are not present to attach to anything. When the conditions for a flame are not there, it just vanishes. The flame doesn't go anywhere. One who isn't attached to the belief that the body is them is not born and doesn't die.

"And so, Anuradha — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'Friends, the Tathagata — the supreme man, the superlative man, attainer of the superlative attainment — being described, is described otherwise than with these four positions: The Tathagata exists after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death'?"

The arahant fully realises that there is no one in charge and there wasn't, in reality, any self or atta in the first place.
That being the case, there was no one born in the first place and therefore no one actually dies.
The end of the identity view means the end of birth, death ... what more re-birth.

Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'"

Most will not understand this...
Deathless=No birth, no death, no rebirth. Not annihilation.

'Open are the doors to the Deathless
to those with ears.
Let them show their conviction.
Perceiving trouble, O Brahma,
I did not tell people
the refined,
sublime Dhamma.'

In a nutshell - Whatever you take to be yours IS yours!

"Nothing whatsoever is to be clung to as 'I' Or 'mine.' Whoever has heard this has heard all the teachings. Whoever practices this has practiced all the teachings. Whoever realizes this has realized all the teachings."

[Rahula]

The arahant is not attached to anything simply because they are not present to attach to anything. When the conditions for a flame are not there, it just vanishes. The flame doesn't go anywhere. One who isn't attached to the belief that the body is them is not born and doesn't die.

The arahant fully realises that there is no one in charge and there wasn't, in reality, any self or atta in the first place.
That being the case, there was no one born in the first place and therefore no one actually dies.
The end of the identity view means the end of birth, death ... what more re-birth.

As I understood, the above is a wrong understanding of Buddha's teaching. (I might be wrong).

Someone who does deep meditation & develops their mind can come to the conclusion,
"there was no one born in the first place and therefore no one actually dies,
the end of the identity view means the end of birth, death ... what more re-birth"

But he can be further away from Nibbana.

Is thinking like this along enough?

Satipatthana Sutta;

"In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or externally on the body in & of itself, or both internally & externally on the body in & of itself. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body. Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself.

"Furthermore...just as a skilled butcher or his apprentice, having killed a cow, would sit at a crossroads cutting it up into pieces, the monk contemplates this very body — however it stands, however it is disposed — in terms of properties: 'In this body there is the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, & the wind property.'

"In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or focused externally... unsustained by anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

As I understood, this means not to get attached to the body (or soul) thinking it is eternal.
This does not mean there is no body in the first place or there was no one born in the first place and therefore no one actually dies.

It's only an illusion if you interpret Buddha's teachings like that.

As far as I can understand, we should interpret it as following;

We should not get attached to self or body, think that there is an eternal self or body. (not as there is no physical body, but as we should not get attached to it).
We should understand that this body consists of five elements and it is bound to anichcha.
We should learn and practice to let go everything.
Importance of not getting attached to self is that one can let go everything when thinking like that.
So become a bikku and start practising Dhamma.

Even if someone thinks like;

" there was no one born in the first place and therefore no one actually dies.
The end of the identity view means the end of birth, death ... what more re-birth."

and still not able to let go worldly things, whats the use of that view.
I don't know about you, but most people I know, who has that view are like that.

[pegembara]

As I understood, this means not to get attached to the body (or soul) thinking it is eternal.
This does not mean there is no body in the first place or there was no one born in the first place and therefore no one actually dies.


As far as I can understand, we should interpret it as following;

We should not get attached to self or body, think that there is an eternal self or body. (not as there is no physical body, but as we should not get attached to it).
We should understand that this body consists of five elements and it is bound to anichcha.
We should learn and practice to let go everything.
Importance of not getting attached to self is that one can let go everything when thinking like that.

Hardly anyone I know thinks the body is eternal!
Correct, we should not get attached to the body as yours. There is indeed a body that aches and also has pleasurable sensations. That body is impermanent and gets ill and dies. Is it fit to say that is your body? If you think it is yours, then it IS yours. But in reality, it belongs to nature or it is Dhamma. Here I will quote the Buddha.

"Bhikkhus, form is not-self. Were form self, then this form would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.' And since form is not-self, so it leads to affliction, and none can have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html

and still not able to let go worldly things, whats the use of that view.
I don't know about you, but most people I know, who has that view are like that.

Most people still view the five aggregates as what they are or what belongs to them and that is the reason why they cannot let go. The vast majority in fact.

If someone can control this, he/she will not get attached to any thoughts at the final moment of life.
As a result, he/she will not go to another life. Isn't this what happens with an Arhath?

If thoughts are not yours, how can you even control them? The only thing left to do is to just watch those thoughts arise and cease. If nothing is theirs in this very life, there is nothing to "bring" along to their "next" life.

[SarathW]

Eighteen thought-moment is a product of Abhidhamma.
It does not explain the whole teaching of Buddhism.
The way I understand the Four Noble Truths are the Summum Bonum of Buddhism.

[Rahula]

Eighteen thought-moment is a product of Abhidhamma.
It does not explain the whole teaching of Buddhism.
The way I understand the Four Noble Truths are the Summum Bonum of Buddhism.

Thanks for your input.

Isn't Cuti Citta mentioned in the following places?

On one occasion Buddha stood in front of an old lady, blocking her way. She was about to die. Moggollana thero looked into this and understood that she was about to die and explained to her who is in front of her, and asked her to pay respect. She did and as Buddha walks away, she died, still with a pleasant mind. This good kamma and last thought moment (cuti citta) helped her to be reborn in a heaven.

Queen Mallika remembering a bad deed at Cuti Citta and reborn as a worm.

Matta kundali saw Buddha's radiant rays and reborn in heaven.

[SarathW]

Eighteen thought-moment is a product of Abhidhamma.
It does not explain the whole teaching of Buddhism.
The way I understand the Four Noble Truths are the Summum Bonum of Buddhism.

Thanks for your input.

Isn't Cuti Citta mentioned in the following places?

On one occasion Buddha stood in front of an old lady, blocking her way. She was about to die. Moggollana thero looked into this and understood that she was about to die and explained to her who is in front of her, and asked her to pay respect. She did and as Buddha walks away, she died, still with a pleasant mind. This good kamma and last thought moment (cuti citta) helped her to be reborn in a heaven.

Queen Mallika remembering a bad deed at Cuti Citta and reborn as a worm.

Matta kundali saw Buddha's radiant rays and reborn in heaven.

Agree.
The eighteen thought moments are directly or indirectly mentioned in various places in Sutta but not as one Sutta to cover all.

[Rahula]

Eighteen thought-moment is a product of Abhidhamma.
It does not explain the whole teaching of Buddhism.
The way I understand the Four Noble Truths are the Summum Bonum of Buddhism.

Thanks for your input.

Isn't Cuti Citta mentioned in the following places?

On one occasion Buddha stood in front of an old lady, blocking her way. She was about to die. Moggollana thero looked into this and understood that she was about to die and explained to her who is in front of her, and asked her to pay respect. She did and as Buddha walks away, she died, still with a pleasant mind. This good kamma and last thought moment (cuti citta) helped her to be reborn in a heaven.

Queen Mallika remembering a bad deed at Cuti Citta and reborn as a worm.

Matta kundali saw Buddha's radiant rays and reborn in heaven.

Agree.
The eighteen thought moments are directly or indirectly mentioned in various places in Sutta but not as one Sutta to cover all.

I haven't studied Abidhamma. If you can teach be following, I will be grateful.

What is the most important out of 18 thought moments?
Which one leads to a rebirth (mostly)?
If we can get control over them, controlling which one is most important to avoid a rebirth?

When I think like this, I get another question,
What is the purpose of Buddhism?
Isn't it stopping rebirth?

May you be healthy, happy and successful!

[SarathW]

Thanks for your input.

Isn't Cuti Citta mentioned in the following places?

On one occasion Buddha stood in front of an old lady, blocking her way. She was about to die. Moggollana thero looked into this and understood that she was about to die and explained to her who is in front of her, and asked her to pay respect. She did and as Buddha walks away, she died, still with a pleasant mind. This good kamma and last thought moment (cuti citta) helped her to be reborn in a heaven.

Queen Mallika remembering a bad deed at Cuti Citta and reborn as a worm.

Matta kundali saw Buddha's radiant rays and reborn in heaven.

Agree.
The eighteen thought moments are directly or indirectly mentioned in various places in Sutta but not as one Sutta to cover all.

I haven't studied Abidhamma. If you can teach be following, I will be grateful.

What is the most important out of 18 thought moments?
Which one leads to a rebirth (mostly)?
If we can get control over them, controlling which one is most important to avoid a rebirth?

When I think like this, I get another question,
What is the purpose of Buddhism?
Isn't it stopping rebirth?

May you be healthy, happy and successful!

What are the most important out of 18 thought moments? It is just how the mind works. Not all thoughts go through 18 thought moments. I think there is a minimum.
Which one leads to a rebirth (mostly)? The way I understand the Javan thoughts moments create Kamma
If we can get control over them? The way I understand at the stage of Tanha (Vedana paccaya Tanha) or Javana stage
What is the purpose of Buddhism? Elimination suffering (Dukkha)
Isn't it stopping rebirth? Sort of. Birth is suffering too.

I also have very little knowledge of Abhidhamma. Perhaps Ven Dhammanado or RobertK might give a better answer.
Meanwhile some easy reading in Abhidhamma.

9 to 15.
The object having been determined, the most important stage from an ethical standpoint follows. This stage, called javana, consists of seven consecutive thought moments all having an identical nature. It is at this stage that good or evil is done, depending on whether the cittas have wholesome or unwholesome roots. Therefore, these javana thought moments have roots and also produce new kamma.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... #causality

[Rahula]

What is the purpose of Buddhism? Elimination suffering (Dukkha)
Isn't it stopping rebirth? Sort of. Birth is suffering too.

I thought birth is the cause for all Dukkha. If there's no birth (rebirth) there will be no Dukkha.

So, ultimately the purpose of Buddhism comes to eliminating suffering, Dukkha by eliminating the cause of Dukkha, the cycle of rebirth, Samsara.

Is that correct or am I missing something?

[SarathW]

What is the purpose of Buddhism? Elimination suffering (Dukkha)
Isn't it stopping rebirth? Sort of. Birth is suffering too.

I thought birth is the cause for all Dukkha. If there's no birth (rebirth) there will be no Dukkha.

So, ultimately the purpose of Buddhism comes to eliminating suffering, Dukkha by eliminating the cause of Dukkha, the cycle of rebirth, Samsara.

Is that correct or am I missing something?

I think what Buddha said was Tanha is the source of Dukkha. Perhaps birth is say Bhava Tanha. Then we still got to Vibhava Tanha and Kama Tanha.
So you have to be careful not to fall to Vibhava Tanha. (dislike for birth)
This is how I see it.

[cappuccino]

I thought birth is the cause for all Dukkha.

delight is the cause of suffering


since it leads to birth

[Rahula]

What is the purpose of Buddhism? Elimination suffering (Dukkha)
Isn't it stopping rebirth? Sort of. Birth is suffering too.

I thought birth is the cause for all Dukkha. If there's no birth (rebirth) there will be no Dukkha.

So, ultimately the purpose of Buddhism comes to eliminating suffering, Dukkha by eliminating the cause of Dukkha, the cycle of rebirth, Samsara.

Is that correct or am I missing something?

I think what Buddha said was Tanha is the source of Dukkha. Perhaps birth is say Bhava Tanha. Then we still got to Vibhava Tanha and Kama Tanha.
So you have to be careful not to fall to Vibhava Tanha. (dislike for birth)
This is how I see it.

Understood, thanks a lot.
So, understanding the purpose of Buddhism as ceasing Samsara is too narrow, isn't it?
Ceasing Samsara comes as a by-product of ceasing Thanha, is that understanding correct?