Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

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Rahula
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Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

Post by Rahula »

The following article on dhammawiki.com seems to be misleading according to my knowledge.

Last thought moment

Second para:
"The theory of the importance of the last thought moment is not mentioned in any of the Buddha’s discourses or even in the later Abhidhamma Pitaka. The Tipitaka records many occasions where the Buddha counselled people who were either dying or critically ill. If the last thought is really crucial to one’s destiny one would expect such occasions to be the most appropriate time for him to mention it, and yet he never did. Nor did he mention it anywhere else. "
---------

I had come across many occasions where last thought moment or cuti citta was mentioned.

One such occasion is when Buddha stood in front of an old lady, blocking her way. She was about to die. Moggollana thero looked into this and understood that she was about to die and explained to her who is in front of her, and asked her to pay respect. She did and as Buddha walks away, she died, still with a pleasant mind. This good kamma and last thought moment (cuti citta) helped her to be reborn in a heaven.

Another occasion is in Matta Kundali Jataka.

My limited knowledge doesn't have any reference to suttas.

Please help me understand this.
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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

Post by auto »

There's a Sutta about when person is dead and then he still hears what is said to him and this way can steer to a better place. I have quoted that Sutta i try to find it.
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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

Post by Rahula »

auto wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:52 pm There's a Sutta about when person is dead and then he still hears what is said to him and this way can steer to a better place. I have quoted that Sutta i try to find it.
This sound very strange to me. Looking forward to seeing the quoted Sutta.
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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

Post by DNS »

What is misleading? There are sutta references in the article. If you have evidence to the contrary, please post the sutta references.
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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

Post by auto »

Rahula wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:57 pm
auto wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:52 pm There's a Sutta about when person is dead and then he still hears what is said to him and this way can steer to a better place. I have quoted that Sutta i try to find it.
This sound very strange to me. Looking forward to seeing the quoted Sutta.
didn't found it right now, if i randomly find it then i post it.
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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

Post by Rahula »

Another occasion: The story of Queen Mallika.
According to ancient texts, the Queen was bathing one day when a pet dog tried to fornicate with her leg. For whatever reason, she hesitated to push the dog away and the King caught a glimpse of this from afar. When ques­tioned, the Queen did some fast talking and convinced the King that the win­dow glass had obscured his view. Leg­end holds that this was one of the only sins that she ever committed.

When Queen Mallika died, the last thing that she remembered was this particular lie, and ancient texts hold that she had to spend seven days in re­pentance for this in Buddhist hell.
https://www.thephuketnews.com/the-forgo ... -71270.php
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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

Post by DNS »

Rahula wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:17 pm When Queen Mallika died, the last thing that she remembered was this particular lie, and ancient texts hold that she had to spend seven days in re­pentance for this in Buddhist hell.
I believe that is from the Jatakas? But anyway, note that it is only seven days, not an eternity and not even a very long time. So it did not determine a severe or sole outcome of her next rebirths. This is because otherwise during the rest of her life as a Queen, she was good.
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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

Post by DNS »

In Samyutta Nikaya 55.21 Mahanama said to the Buddha "Sometimes, when I enter Kapilavatthu in the evening after visiting with the Blessed One or with the monks who inspire the mind, I meet up with a runaway elephant, a runaway horse, a runaway chariot, a runaway cart, or a runaway person. At times like that my mindfulness with regard to the Blessed One gets muddled, my mindfulness with regard to the Dhamma... the Sangha gets muddled. The thought occurs to me, 'If I were to die at this moment, what would be my destination? What would be my future course?"

The Buddha answered him, "Have no fear, Mahanama! Have no fear! Your death will not be a bad one, your demise will not be bad. If one's mind has long been nurtured with conviction, nurtured with virtue, nurtured with learning, nurtured with relinquishment, nurtured with discernment, then when the body; endowed with form, composed of the four primary elements, born from mother & father, nourished with rice & porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing, pressing, dissolution, and dispersion; is eaten by crows, vultures, hawks, dogs, hyenas, or all sorts of creatures, nevertheless the mind — long nurtured with conviction, nurtured with virtue, learning, relinquishment, and discernment; rises upward and separates out."

Notice that the Buddha states if your mind has been long nurtured with conviction, virtue, . . . that one will still have a good rebirth and that Mahanma need not worry about his mind state if he gets trampled by a runaway elephant or chariot, in his final thought moment.
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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

Post by Rahula »

DNS wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:03 pm In Samyutta Nikaya 55.21 Mahanama said to the Buddha "Sometimes, when I enter Kapilavatthu in the evening after visiting with the Blessed One or with the monks who inspire the mind, I meet up with a runaway elephant, a runaway horse, a runaway chariot, a runaway cart, or a runaway person. At times like that my mindfulness with regard to the Blessed One gets muddled, my mindfulness with regard to the Dhamma... the Sangha gets muddled. The thought occurs to me, 'If I were to die at this moment, what would be my destination? What would be my future course?"

The Buddha answered him, "Have no fear, Mahanama! Have no fear! Your death will not be a bad one, your demise will not be bad. If one's mind has long been nurtured with conviction, nurtured with virtue, nurtured with learning, nurtured with relinquishment, nurtured with discernment, then when the body; endowed with form, composed of the four primary elements, born from mother & father, nourished with rice & porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing, pressing, dissolution, and dispersion; is eaten by crows, vultures, hawks, dogs, hyenas, or all sorts of creatures, nevertheless the mind — long nurtured with conviction, nurtured with virtue, learning, relinquishment, and discernment; rises upward and separates out."

Notice that the Buddha states if your mind has been long nurtured with conviction, virtue, . . . that one will still have a good rebirth and that Mahanma need not worry about his mind state if he gets trampled by a runaway elephant or chariot, in his final thought moment.
Thank you very much. This is the wisdom I was looking for. Please send me more reference like this if you can.
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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

Post by SarathW »

Just a note to David.
The sequence in 37 factors of enlightenment in DhammaWiki is incorrect.
The Noble Eightfold Path is the last and followed by seven factors of Enlightenment.

https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php/37 ... ightenment
:focus:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

Post by Rahula »

DNS wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:03 pm In Samyutta Nikaya 55.21 Mahanama said to the Buddha "Sometimes, when I enter Kapilavatthu in the evening after visiting with the Blessed One or with the monks who inspire the mind, I meet up with a runaway elephant, a runaway horse, a runaway chariot, a runaway cart, or a runaway person. At times like that my mindfulness with regard to the Blessed One gets muddled, my mindfulness with regard to the Dhamma... the Sangha gets muddled. The thought occurs to me, 'If I were to die at this moment, what would be my destination? What would be my future course?"

The Buddha answered him, "Have no fear, Mahanama! Have no fear! Your death will not be a bad one, your demise will not be bad. If one's mind has long been nurtured with conviction, nurtured with virtue, nurtured with learning, nurtured with relinquishment, nurtured with discernment, then when the body; endowed with form, composed of the four primary elements, born from mother & father, nourished with rice & porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing, pressing, dissolution, and dispersion; is eaten by crows, vultures, hawks, dogs, hyenas, or all sorts of creatures, nevertheless the mind — long nurtured with conviction, nurtured with virtue, learning, relinquishment, and discernment; rises upward and separates out."

Notice that the Buddha states if your mind has been long nurtured with conviction, virtue, . . . that one will still have a good rebirth and that Mahanma need not worry about his mind state if he gets trampled by a runaway elephant or chariot, in his final thought moment.
Mahanma was already a stream-enterer. So his rebirth was already guaranteed.
He had some control over his mind, thoughts. The way he looks at things was different from a layperson.
He could see anichcha at the last moment. So he might not cling to attachments that much at his last thought-moment.

Can that be the reason Buddha gave this assurance to Mahanma?
Will the Buddha give same assurance to a layperson?
Is there any more sutta reference like above?

Thank you!
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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

Post by confusedlayman »

but is mahanama a bad general who assisted in war?
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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

Post by DNS »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 8:47 pm but is mahanama a bad general who assisted in war?
I think you're thinking of General Siha.
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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

Post by DNS »

Ven. Dhammika:
While the Buddha understood the mind to be a `flow' or `stream' of mental events (vi¤¤ànasota), later abhidhamma thinkers speculated that it was actually a string of individual thought moments (cittavãthi) arising and passing away at great rapidity. Later still, the theory developed that the last thought moment (cuticitta) a person has before they die will determine their next life. This idea, now current in Theravàda, seems to be an unjustified development of the Buddha's teachings and at odds with his idea of kamma and the efficacy of morality.

The theory of the importance of the last thought moment is not mentioned in any of the Buddha's discourses or even in the later Abhidhamma Piñaka. The Tipiñaka records many occasions where the Buddha counselled people who were either dying or critically ill. If the last thought is really crucial to one's destiny one would expect such occasions to be the most appropriate time for him to mention it, and yet he never did. Nor did he mention it anywhere else.
https://www.buddhisma2z.com/content.php?id=223
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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

Post by confusedlayman »

DNS wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:05 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 8:47 pm but is mahanama a bad general who assisted in war?
I think you're thinking of General Siha.
I think yes im not sure about who it is.. but general Siha good?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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