Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

Post by DNS »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:41 pm I think yes im not sure about who it is.. but general Siha good?
Yes, according to the Sutta account, he was a stream-entrant.
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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

Post by confusedlayman »

DNS wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:43 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:41 pm I think yes im not sure about who it is.. but general Siha good?
Yes, according to the Sutta account, he was a stream-entrant.
but did he help in war that lead to mass murder? if so how can he be stream entry?
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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

Post by DNS »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:44 pm but did he help in war that lead to mass murder? if so how can he be stream entry?
Maybe his good kamma (actions) outweighed the negative?
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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

Post by confusedlayman »

DNS wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:47 pm
confusedlayman wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:44 pm but did he help in war that lead to mass murder? if so how can he be stream entry?
Maybe his good kamma (actions) outweighed the negative?
maybe
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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

Post by Dhammanando »

DNS wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:07 pm Ven. Dhammika:

The theory of the importance of the last thought moment is not mentioned in any of the Buddha's discourses or even in the later Abhidhamma Piñaka. The Tipiñaka records many occasions where the Buddha counselled people who were either dying or critically ill. If the last thought is really crucial to one's destiny one would expect such occasions to be the most appropriate time for him to mention it, and yet he never did.
I think the very fact that the Buddha did make a point of visiting the dying, or sending an arahant disciple to visit them, or, at the very least, sending them some instruction via messenger, suggests that he did regard the time of death as an especially crucial time.
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


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Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

Post by Dhammanando »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:44 pm but did he help in war that lead to mass murder?
No, there's no mention of any such thing. When the Jains were badmouthing Sīha after he transferred his allegiance from Mahāvīra to the Buddha the worst they could come up with was that he'd had an ox slaughtered to feed the Sangha. Even that charge was baseless.

http://aimwell.org/DPPN/siha.html
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

Post by Polar Bear »

Apparently, undertaking right view at the time of death can be helpful in attaining a good rebirth. This is not the same as saying the last thought moment is decisive but it’s heading in that direction.
Now, Ānanda, take the case of the person here who killed living creatures … and had wrong view, and who is reborn in a heavenly realm. They must have done a good deed to be experienced as pleasant either previously or later, or else at the time of death they undertook right view. And that’s why, when their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm. But anyone here who kills living creatures … and has wrong view experiences the result of that in the present life, or in the next life, or in some subsequent period.

https://suttacentral.net/mn136/en/sujato
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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

Post by Dhammanando »

Polar Bear wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 3:32 am Apparently, undertaking right view at the time of death can be helpful in attaining a good rebirth. This is not the same as saying the last thought moment is decisive but it’s heading in that direction.
Yes. There's also the Yodhajīvasutta, with the Buddha's repudiation of the Indian version of the Norse Valhalla conception.
Then Yodhajiva the headman went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, I have heard that it has been passed down by the ancient teaching lineage of warriors that 'When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, if others then strike him down & slay him while he is striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of devas slain in battle.' What does the Blessed One have to say about that?"

"Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that."

A second time... A third time Yodhajiva the headman said: "Lord, I have heard that it has been passed down by the ancient teaching lineage of warriors that 'When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, if others then strike him down & slay him while he is striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of devas slain in battle.' What does the Blessed One have to say about that?"

"Apparently, headman, I haven't been able to get past you by saying, 'Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that.' So I will simply answer you. When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, his mind is already seized, debased, & misdirected by the thought: 'May these beings be struck down or slaughtered or annihilated or destroyed. May they not exist.' If others then strike him down & slay him while he is thus striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the hell called the realm of those slain in battle. But if he holds such a view as this: 'When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, if others then strike him down & slay him while he is striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of devas slain in battle,' that is his wrong view. Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

Post by Rahula »

Dhammanando wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:29 pm I think the very fact that the Buddha did make a point of visiting the dying, or sending an arahant disciple to visit them, or, at the very least, sending them some instruction via messenger, suggests that he did regard the time of death as an especially crucial time.
Please let me know if you can remember any such moments mentioned in suttas.

Also, is the fact that some people reached Nibbana at death moment, related to cuti citta?
Like the king Suddodana, Sarakani etc.

If someone can control their mind and not get cling to any thought at the last moment, isn't that achieving Nibbana?

Isn't the problem layperson has is the inability to control last thought moment? Thus he cling to a thought at last moment and go for another birth?
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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

Post by Rahula »

DNS wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:47 pm What is misleading? There are sutta references in the article. If you have evidence to the contrary, please post the sutta references.
Middle Discourses 136
The Longer Analysis of Deeds
Now, Ānanda, take the case of the person here who killed living creatures … and had wrong view, and who, when their body breaks up, after death, is reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell. They must have done a bad deed to be experienced as painful either previously or later, or else at the time of death they undertook wrong view. And that’s why, when their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell. But anyone here who kills living creatures … and has wrong view experiences the result of that in the present life, or in the next life, or in some subsequent period.

Now, Ānanda, take the case of the person here who killed living creatures … and had wrong view, and who is reborn in a heavenly realm. They must have done a good deed to be experienced as pleasant either previously or later, or else at the time of death they undertook right view. And that’s why, when their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm. But anyone here who kills living creatures … and has wrong view experiences the result of that in the present life, or in the next life, or in some subsequent period.

Now, Ānanda, take the case of the person here who refrained from killing living creatures … and had right view, and who is reborn in a heavenly realm. They must have done a good deed to be experienced as pleasant either previously or later, or else at the time of death they undertook right view. And that’s why, when their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm. But anyone here who refrains from killing living creatures … and has right view experiences the result of that in the present life, or in the next life, or in some subsequent period.

Now, Ānanda, take the case of the person here who refrained from killing living creatures … and had right view, and who is reborn in hell. They must have done a bad deed to be experienced as painful either previously or later, or else at the time of death they undertook wrong view. And that’s why, when their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell. But anyone here who refrains from killing living creatures … and has right view experiences the result of that in the present life, or in the next life, or in some subsequent period.

So, Ānanda, there are deeds that are ineffective and appear ineffective. There are deeds that are ineffective but appear effective. There are deeds that are effective and appear effective. And there are deeds that are effective but appear ineffective.”

That is what the Buddha said.

Mahākammavibhaṅgasutta—Bhikkhu Sujato
About Sarakāni
If these great sal trees could understand what was well said and poorly said, I’d declare them to be stream-enterers. Why can’t this apply to Sarakāni? Mahānāma, Sarakāni the Sakyan undertook the training at the time of his death.”

Paṭhamasaraṇānisakkasutta—Bhikkhu Sujato
With Phagguṇa
Not long after the Buddha left, Venerable Phagguṇa passed away. At the time of his death, his faculties were bright and clear. Then Venerable Ānanda went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to him, “Sir, soon after the Buddha left, Venerable Phagguṇa died. At the time of his death, his faculties were bright and clear.”

“And why shouldn’t his faculties be bright and clear? The mendicant Phagguṇa’s mind was not freed from the five lower fetters. But when he heard that teaching his mind was freed from them.

Ānanda, there are these six benefits to hearing the teaching at the right time and examining the meaning at the right time. What six?

Firstly, take the case of a mendicant whose mind is not freed from the five lower fetters. At the time of death they get to see the Realized One. The Realized One teaches them Dhamma that’s good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end, meaningful and well-phrased. And he reveals a spiritual practice that’s entirely full and pure. When they hear that teaching their mind is freed from the five lower fetters. This is the first benefit of listening to the teaching.

Next, take the case of another mendicant whose mind is not freed from the five lower fetters. At the time of death they don’t get to see the Realized One, but they get to see a Realized One’s disciple. The Realized One’s disciple teaches them Dhamma … When they hear that teaching their mind is freed from the five lower fetters. This is the second benefit of listening to the teaching.

Next, take the case of another mendicant whose mind is not freed from the five lower fetters. At the time of death they don’t get to see the Realized One, or to see a Realized One’s disciple. But they think about and consider the teaching in their heart, examining it with the mind as they learned and memorized it. As they do so their mind is freed from the five lower fetters. This is the third benefit of listening to the teaching.

Next, take the case of a mendicant whose mind is freed from the five lower fetters, but not with the supreme ending of attachments. At the time of death they get to see the Realized One. The Realized One teaches them Dhamma … When they hear that teaching their mind is freed with the supreme ending of attachments. This is the fourth benefit of listening to the teaching.

Next, take the case of another mendicant whose mind is freed from the five lower fetters, but not with the supreme ending of attachments. At the time of death they don’t get to see the Realized One, but they get to see a Realized One’s disciple. The Realized One’s disciple teaches them Dhamma … When they hear that teaching their mind is freed with the supreme ending of attachments. This is the fifth benefit of listening to the teaching.

Next, take the case of another mendicant whose mind is freed from the five lower fetters, but not with the supreme ending of attachments. At the time of death they don’t get to see the Realized One, or to see a Realized One’s disciple. But they think about and consider the teaching in their heart, examining it with the mind as they learned and memorized it. As they do so their mind is freed with the supreme ending of attachments. This is the sixth benefit of listening to the teaching.

These are the six benefits to hearing the teaching at the right time and examining the meaning at the right time.”

Phaggunasutta—Bhikkhu Sujato
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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

Post by asahi »

At the time of death , if one is unconscious then no thought . Most probably there is so called Last Breath but no last thought . The mind will no longer be conscious for average person without going through any kind of mind training before .
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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

Post by Rahula »

asahi wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 6:59 am At the time of death , if one is unconscious then no thought . Most probably there is so called Last Breath but no last thought . The mind will no longer be conscious for average person without going through any kind of mind training before .
I don't agree. There is evidence that even people in comas can hear others.
What about Near Death Experience? I even have a relative who had that experience.

Even the body is unconscious, the mind can still be very active.
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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

Post by DNS »

Rahula wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 8:27 pm
Middle Discourses 136
The Longer Analysis of Deeds
Now, Ānanda, take the case of the person here who killed living creatures … and had wrong view, and who, when their body breaks up, after death, is reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell. They must have done a bad deed to be experienced as painful either previously or later, or else at the time of death they undertook wrong view. And that’s why, when their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell. But anyone here who kills living creatures … and has wrong view experiences the result of that in the present life, or in the next life, or in some subsequent period.
Of course the last thought moment is important, but not the sole determination of kamma-vipaka. Notice how the quotes you provide also discuss deeds performed in that person's life. And of course someone could attain right view at the death bed or also go bad at that time. But it is not the Summum bonum of Buddhism imo. Numerous references in the Suttas refer to deeds done over the course of a lifetime and even previous lives.
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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

Post by Rahula »

DNS wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 4:11 pm Of course the last thought moment is important, but not the sole determination of kamma-vipaka. Notice how the quotes you provide also discuss deeds performed in that person's life. And of course someone could attain right view at the death bed or also go bad at that time. But it is not the Summum bonum of Buddhism imo. Numerous references in the Suttas refer to deeds done over the course of a lifetime and even previous lives.
Rahula wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:36 pm Second para on dhammawiki.com - Last thought moment
"The theory of the importance of the last thought moment is not mentioned in any of the Buddha’s discourses or even in the later Abhidhamma Pitaka. The Tipitaka records many occasions where the Buddha counselled people who were either dying or critically ill. If the last thought is really crucial to one’s destiny one would expect such occasions to be the most appropriate time for him to mention it, and yet he never did. Nor did he mention it anywhere else."
Above statements highlighted in red appears to be misleading according to those sutra reference I mentioned.
Buddha had mentioned it on those occasions.

Don't you agree?
Third para on dhammawiki.com - Last thought moment
If a person had lived a relatively good life but in the anxiety and confusion just preceding their death they have some negative thoughts they would, according to this theory, have a bad rebirth.
Here's the Buddhas teaching;
Now, Ānanda, take the case of the person here who refrained from killing living creatures … and had right view, and who is reborn in hell. They must have done a bad deed to be experienced as painful either previously or later, or else at the time of death they undertook wrong view. And that’s why, when their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell. But anyone here who refrains from killing living creatures … and has right view experiences the result of that in the present life, or in the next life, or in some subsequent period.

Middle Discourses 136 - The Longer Analysis of Deeds
I think an important thing we have to remember here is the fact that;
One lifetimes good deeds are just a mere section when it is compared to the Saṃsāra.
As the Buddha explained above, even after having a good spiritual life, one can reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell.

Whether we like it or not, that is the way how it works. That is the way the Buddha has taught.
Results of good Kamma will come to in some subsequent life, if not the next.
So we should not keep high expectance of our good deeds and think that it will assure us a better next life,
if we are not a Sotāpanna.
Third para on dhammawiki.com - Last thought moment
Likewise, one could have lived an immoral and dissolute life but pass away with ease and in peace and therefore have an advantageous rebirth. This negates the whole idea of kamma, the teaching that the sum total of our intentional thoughts, speech and actions conditions our future, both in this life and the next.
Here's the Buddhas teaching;
Now, Ānanda, take the case of the person here who killed living creatures … and had wrong view, and who is reborn in a heavenly realm. They must have done a good deed to be experienced as pleasant either previously or later, or else at the time of death they undertook right view. And that’s why, when their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm. But anyone here who kills living creatures … and has wrong view experiences the result of that in the present life, or in the next life, or in some subsequent period.

Middle Discourses 136 - The Longer Analysis of Deeds
Third para on dhammawiki.com - Last thought moment
Further, it is very difficult to understand how just one or two thought moments, each of a millisecond long (khaṇa), can cancel out perhaps many years of good or evil thoughts, speech and actions.
Above statement contradicts your own statement just few line below.
Third para on dhammawiki.com - Last thought moment
For example, he said (A.II,80) that trying to work out the subtle and interconnected workings of kamma (kamma vipāka) would send one mad (ummāda).
Aren't you trying the same thing?

I believe we should not try to understand how the underline Kamma of the Last thought moment works,
rather, we should accept it as how the Buddha taught it,
as trying to work out the subtle and interconnected workings of kamma would send one mad !
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Re: Is dhammawiki.com article on 'Last thought moment' correct?

Post by DNS »

No, I'm not trying the same thing. I'm speaking generally, not to specific workings of kamma-vipaka. Actually, that part was written by Ven. Dhammika. He uses PTS style quotes; I tend to use the modern quoting system of Nikaya-Sutta Number, etc.

I believe the Buddha answered this very well here:

In Samyutta Nikaya 55.21 Mahanama said to the Buddha "Sometimes, when I enter Kapilavatthu in the evening after visiting with the Blessed One or with the monks who inspire the mind, I meet up with a runaway elephant, a runaway horse, a runaway chariot, a runaway cart, or a runaway person. At times like that my mindfulness with regard to the Blessed One gets muddled, my mindfulness with regard to the Dhamma... the Sangha gets muddled. The thought occurs to me, 'If I were to die at this moment, what would be my destination? What would be my future course?"

The Buddha answered him, "Have no fear, Mahanama! Have no fear! Your death will not be a bad one, your demise will not be bad. If one's mind has long been nurtured with conviction, nurtured with virtue, nurtured with learning, nurtured with relinquishment, nurtured with discernment, then when the body; endowed with form, composed of the four primary elements, born from mother & father, nourished with rice & porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing, pressing, dissolution, and dispersion; is eaten by crows, vultures, hawks, dogs, hyenas, or all sorts of creatures, nevertheless the mind — long nurtured with conviction, nurtured with virtue, learning, relinquishment, and discernment; rises upward and separates out."

Notice that the Buddha states if your mind has been long nurtured with conviction, virtue, . . . that one will still have a good rebirth and that Mahanma need not worry about his mind state if he gets trampled by a runaway elephant or chariot, in his final thought moment.
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