Ignorance is to be shun, rejected not dissolved or getting rid of

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auto
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Ignorance is to be shun, rejected not dissolved or getting rid of

Post by auto »

not entire Sutta,
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.19/en/sujato wrote:For an astute person hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, this body has been produced. But the astute person has given up that ignorance and finished that craving.
Yāya ca, bhikkhave, avijjāya nivutassa paṇḍitassa yāya ca taṇhāya sampayuttassa ayaṁ kāyo samudāgato, sā ceva avijjā paṇḍitassa pahīnā, sā ca taṇhā parikkhīṇā.
corruptions are passing,
https://suttacentral.net/an1.51-60/en/sujato wrote:“This mind, mendicants, is radiant.
“Pabhassaramidaṁ, bhikkhave, cittaṁ.
But it is corrupted by passing corruptions.
Tañca kho āgantukehi upakkilesehi upakkiliṭṭhaṁ.
An uneducated ordinary person does not truly understand this.
Taṁ assutavā puthujjano yathābhūtaṁ nappajānāti.
So I say that the uneducated ordinary person has no development of the mind.”
Tasmā ‘assutavato puthujjanassa cittabhāvanā natthī’ti vadāmī”ti.
Uneducated doesn't understand that the body is acquired because mind of an astute person is hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving.

Are we moving away from classical Theravada here?
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Dhammanando
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Re: Ignorance is to be shun, rejected not dissolved or getting rid of

Post by Dhammanando »

"Ignorance is to be shunned or rejected, not dissolved or gotten rid of."
I don't think this is an either/or thing. The suttas use a variety of verbs to describe what happens to ignorance and other defilements upon awakening. Your first sutta passage speaks of them being "abandoned", but others speak of them ceasing, being washed away, pulled up by the roots, expunged, cut off at the roots, burned up, removed, dried up, crossed over, gone beyond, etc., etc.

Sometimes a variety of different tropes will be used in just a single sutta, as for example in the verses of the Uragasutta.

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/snp1.1

auto wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:04 pm Are we moving away from classical Theravada here?
One wouldn't be moving away from it merely by quoting a couple of suttas. It's how one interprets them that determines whether one's understanding is aligned with that of the classical Theravada or a departure from it.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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Eko Care
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Re: Ignorance is to be shun, rejected not dissolved or getting rid of

Post by Eko Care »

Dhammanando wrote:

It's how one interprets them that determines whether one's understanding is aligned with that of the classical Theravada or a departure from it.
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Re: Ignorance is to be shun, rejected not dissolved or getting rid of

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Eko Care wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:59 am
Dhammanando wrote:

It's how one interprets them that determines whether one's understanding is aligned with that of the classical Theravada or a departure from it.
Please stop just quoting chunks of people's posts that you like without adding anything to it.

Future "echoes" of this type will be removed.

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Eko Care
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Re: Ignorance is to be shun, rejected not dissolved or getting rid of

Post by Eko Care »

Dhammanando wrote:

It's how one interprets them that determines whether one's understanding is aligned with that of the classical Theravada or a departure from it.
In some cases,
It's how one reacts to them that determines whether one's understanding is aligned with that of the classical Theravada or a departure from it.
auto
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Re: Ignorance is to be shun, rejected not dissolved or getting rid of

Post by auto »

Dhammanando wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:26 am .
Yes, but awakened person who have defeated, given up, abandoned, cut off the roots of rebirth can get hindered by ignorance and still reborn.
https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/snp1.1 wrote: Who removes arisen anger
as herbs a serpent’s venom spread;
a bhikkhu such leaves here and there
as a serpent sloughs its worn-out skin.
I have understood the views that there is no self to begin with, no doer, no more rebirth to be classical interpretations.
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Re: Ignorance is to be shun, rejected not dissolved or getting rid of

Post by Dhammanando »

auto wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:16 pm Yes, but awakened person who have defeated, given up, abandoned, cut off the roots of rebirth can get hindered by ignorance and still reborn.
If he is an arahant, then by definition all of the ten fetters (of which the tenth is ignorance) have been fully known (abhiññāya) by him, fully understood (pariññāya), completely destroyed (parikkhayāya) and abandoned (pahānāya).

On what basis, then, do you suggest that a "completely destroyed" fetter might come back and hinder him?
auto wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:16 pm Who removes arisen anger
as herbs a serpent’s venom spread;
a bhikkhu such leaves here and there
as a serpent sloughs its worn-out skin.

I have understood the views that there is no self to begin with, no doer, no more rebirth to be classical interpretations.
And do you think that your sutta quote is at odds with this? If so, how?
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
auto
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Re: Ignorance is to be shun, rejected not dissolved or getting rid of

Post by auto »

Dhammanando wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:10 pm And do you think that your sutta quote is at odds with this? If so, how?
no, it is not at odds.
Dhammanando wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:10 pm On what basis, then, do you suggest that a "completely destroyed" fetter might come back and hinder him?
sentient beings(also the awakened) perceive what has come to be(passing corruptions).
https://suttacentral.net/sn1.38/en/sujato wrote: Now at that time the Buddha’s foot had been cut by a splinter.
Tena kho pana samayena bhagavato pādo sakalikāya khato hoti.
The second verse starts from third line of the first verse. Based on that* an awakened being becomes established in anger if it arises.
https://suttacentral.net/sn1.20/en/sujato wrote: “Sentient beings who perceive the communicable,
“Akkheyyasaññino sattā,
become established in the communicable.
akkheyyasmiṁ patiṭṭhitā;
Not understanding the communicable,
Akkheyyaṁ apariññāya,
they fall under the yoke of Death.
yogamāyanti maccuno.

But having fully understood the communicable,
Akkheyyañca pariññāya,
they don’t identify as a communicator,
Akkhātāraṁ na maññati;
for they have nothing
Tañhi tassa na hotīti,
by which they might be described.
Yena naṁ vajjā na tassa atthi;
Tell me if you understand, spirit.”
Sace vijānāsi vadehi yakkhā”ti.
*first verse two lines are about both, awakened and unawakened sentient beings.
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