Meaning of acquisition of sense base

[asahi]

Does it refers to obtaining of sense base or sense base (in physical sense) come into being , thoughts ?

acquisition of the sense fields of the various sentient beings in the various orders of sentient beings.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

In my understanding, this is when the following bifurcation of experience occurs...

Seeing becomes Eye and Object
Hearing becomes Ear and Object
Smelling becomes Nose and Object
Thinking become Mind and Object (thought)
Touching becomes Body and Object
Tasting becomes Tongue and Object.

Metta,
Paul.

[asahi]

bifurcation of experience occurs :

Seeing becomes Eye and Object
Hearing becomes Ear and Object
Smelling becomes Nose and Object
Thinking become Mind and Object (thought)
Touching becomes Body and Object
Tasting becomes Tongue and Object.

Below says descent into the womb .

The birth of the various beings into the various orders of beings, their being born, descent into the womb, production, the manifestation of the aggregates, the obtaining of the sense bases. This is called birth.

How would you relate birth (ie as a sense of division) to aging death (ie of body as a corpse) ?

And what, bhikkhus, is aging-and-death? The aging of the various beings in the various orders of beings, their growing old, brokenness of teeth, greyness of hair, wrinkling of skin, decline of vitality, degeneration of the faculties: this is called aging. The passing away of the various beings from the various orders of beings, their perishing, breakup, disappearance, mortality, death, completion of time, the breakup of the aggregates, the laying down of the carcass: this is called death. Thus this aging and this death are together called aging-and-death.

[DooDoot]

In my understanding, this is when the following bifurcation of experience occurs...

Seeing becomes Eye and Object
Hearing becomes Ear and Object
Smelling becomes Nose and Object
Thinking become Mind and Object (thought)
Touching becomes Body and Object
Tasting becomes Tongue and Object.

"acquisition of sense base" is included in the definition of jati

into the womb

the above is false and not found in the Pali. Bhikkhu Bodhi has taken a personal liberty to add "into the womb" into his translation when it does not exist in the Pali

Meaning of acquisition of sense base

the 5th condition of dependent origination is called "salayatana", which means "six sense bases". the term "acquisition of their ayatana" in the 11th condition of dependent origination is called "ayatana" and not "salayatana". this appears to mean it does not refer to six sense bases but to one or more sense bases

i already explained this to you elsewhere but you obviously chose to disregard my explanation because you believe in the false translation of Bhikkhu Bodhi

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

"acquisition of sense base" is included in the definition of jati

Yes, that makes sense. What I was referring to earlier was the arising of the sense bases rather than the acquisition of those arisen sense bases as "I".

Apologies to the OP for having slightly mis-read the question - I was referring to an earlier part of the process. Nonetheless, it is a precursor, so hopefully it remains of some assistance.

Metta,
Paul.

[Srilankaputra]

As I understand,

Only way to satisfactorily answer this, is to obtain insight in to nature of the sense bases for your self. In order to do this, a well developed mind is needed. A mind that is stable, sharp, rid of the hindrances and amenable. Then it can be directed towards investigating the nature of the sense bases as it appears in direct experience, right here right now. They can be seen as certain complexes of rūpī sensitivities. Then the mind can be directed towards understanding the dependantly originated/originating nature of the sense bases. pubbenivāsānussati is not compulsory to go beyond doubt here and now.

[pegembara]

Question...Is this acquisition upadhi? In the sense that you pick up the seeing and make it personal. Instead of "in seeing just the seen", it becomes "I am seeing." You pick it up, it is yours.

The term "acquisition" (upadhi), in its everyday sense, denotes the possessions, baggage, and other paraphernalia that a nomadic family might carry around with it in its wanderings. On the psychological level, it denotes anything for which one might have a sense of "I" or "mine" and which, consequently, one would carry around as a kind of mental baggage.

If you ask me
the coming-into-being
of stress & suffering,
I will tell it to you
as one who discerns.
From acquisition [1] as cause
the many forms of stress & suffering
come into being in the world.
Whoever, unknowing, makes acquisitions
— the fool —
comes to stress & suffering
again
& again.

So one who's discerning,
focused on the birth
of stress & suffering,
their coming-into-being,
should make no acquisitions.

I will teach you the Dhamma
— in the here & now,
not quoted words —
knowing which, living mindfully,
you'll cross over beyond
entanglement in the world.

Whatever you're alert to,
above, below,
across, in between:[2]
dispelling any delight,
any laying claim
to those things,
consciousness should not take a stance
in becoming.
The monk who dwells thus
— mindful, heedful —
letting go of his sense of mine,
knowing right here would abandon
birth & aging,
lamentation & sorrow,
stress & suffering.

I relish, Gotama, the Great Seer's words
well-expounded, without acquisition,
for yes, O Blessed One,
you've abandoned stress & suffering
as this Dhamma has
been known by you.
And they, too, would abandon stress & suffering
those whom you, sage,
would admonish unceasingly.
Having met you, I bow down to you,
Great One.
Perhaps you will admonish me
unceasingly.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

[asahi]

the 5th condition of dependent origination is called "salayatana", which means "six sense bases". the term "acquisition of their ayatana" in the 11th condition of dependent origination is called "ayatana" and not "salayatana". this appears to mean it does not refer to six sense bases but to one or more sense bases

Pls provide sutta reference for it ie. Ayatana there not refer to six sense bases ? And explain how if only one sense base can lead to aging and death ? Just to be sure if you regards SN12.2 as the Buddha words ?

[DooDoot]

Pls provide sutta reference for it ie. Ayatana there not refer to six sense bases ?

I already did.

"Six sense bases" is not the same as "sense bases".

And explain how if only one sense base can lead to aging and death ?

What leads to aging & death is not the sense bases but is the "acquisition". Refer to SN 12.66.

‘The many diverse kinds of suffering that arise in the world headed by aging-and-death: this suffering has acquisition as its source, acquisition as its origin; it is born and produced from acquisition. When there is acquisition, aging-and-death comes to be; when there is no acquisition, aging-and-death does not come to be.’

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/sn12.66

Just to be sure if you regards SN12.2 as the Buddha words ?

SN 12.2 is certainly the Buddha's words. I am 100% free from doubt about this.

[asahi]

I already did.

Where , which ?

What leads to aging & death is not the sense bases but is the "acquisition". Refer to SN 12.66.

‘The many diverse kinds of suffering that arise in the world headed by aging-and-death: this suffering has acquisition as its source, acquisition as its origin; it is born and produced from acquisition. When there is acquisition, aging-and-death comes to be; when there is no acquisition, aging-and-death does not come to be.’

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/sn12.66

Your reference appears to say it is upadhi or attachment that led to sufferings . Which is not mention in SN12.2 with regards to jati .

That is quite difference from below .

Unless i am misreading ,
Below references is about obtaining or gaining sense bases or come into being of sense bases and not about attachment ie upadhi .

And what is rebirth?
Katamā ca, bhikkhave, jāti?
The rebirth, inception, conception, reincarnation, manifestation of the aggregates, and acquisition of the sense fields of the various sentient beings in the various orders of sentient beings.

Yā tesaṁ tesaṁ sattānaṁ tamhi tamhi sattanikāye jāti sañjāti okkanti abhinibbatti khandhānaṁ pātubhāvo āyatanānaṁ paṭilābho.
This is called rebirth.

And what, bhikkhus, is birth? The birth of the various beings into the various orders of beings, their being born, descent into the womb, production, the manifestation of the aggregates, the obtaining of the sense bases. This is called birth.

[chownah]

A different approach to the acquisition of sense base is perhaps to study this statement which can be found in a large number of suttas:

This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.

You can find this and many many more by going to access to insight and searching for "relinquishment acquisition".

I guess, then that whatever it means to acquire sense base the sense base thusly acquired is given up with relinquishment......don't know for sure.....

chownah

[DooDoot]

Your reference appears to say it is upadhi or attachment that led to sufferings . Which is not mention in SN12.2 with regards to jati .

Jati is not mentioned in SN 12.66. Upadhi covers attachment, bhava & jati in SN 12.66. SN 12.66 is obviously about dependent origination and exits not for the purpose of refuting SN 12.2 but for the purpose of avoiding wrong view about SN 12.2. Upadhi is related to birth in the suttas, such as MN 26:

And what may be said to be subject to birth? Spouses & children are subject to birth. Men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver are subject to birth. Subject to birth are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to birth.

MN 26

Below references is about obtaining or gaining sense bases or come into being of sense bases and not about attachment ie upadhi .

āyatanānaṁ paṭilābho.

This is called birth.

Very good. You are able to research. Now please research the suttas that use the word "paṭilābho" & "lābho" to find if these words mean what you are inferring? Thanks

However, please note, everything in "jati" is born from "attachment" therefore the "paṭilābho" in SN 12.2 is a "paṭilābho" with attachment rather than a paṭilābho with non-attachment.

For example, the paṭilābho of wisdom & factors of stream-entry (Dhp 333; SN 55.1) is a paṭilābho without attachment.

into the womb... rebirth

It was already advised the words "rebirth" & "womb" are not found in the Pali in SN 12.2. Thank you.

Regardless:

1. Please provide evidence in sutta where "a being descending into womb obtains sense bases". How would this "being" obtain sense bases? Buy them from a shop? In all the examples of "paṭilābho" in the suttas, the method of "paṭilābho" is understood, such as the "paṭilābho" of the four continents, via war & conquest, or the "paṭilābho" of wisdom via the noble path. So how does a "being descended into a womb" obtain something they previously never had?

2. How can "descent into a womb" mean "birth"? Since when was something entering into a womb regarded as "birth"?

[asahi]

Jati is not mentioned in SN 12.66. Upadhi covers attachment, bhava & jati in SN 12.66. SN 12.66 is obviously about dependent origination

Which part in SN12.66 mention upadhi means attachment , bhava , jati ?

New Concise Pali English Dictionary
All dictionaries
upadhi
masculine
worldly possessions or belongings, acquisitions (according to commentaries including the body); attachment to such possessions (forming a basis for rebirth)

āyatanānaṁ paṭilābho.

http://buddhism.lib.ntu.edu.tw/DLMBS/le ... tha182.htm

manussapaṭilābho: manussapaṭilābha-, N.m.: coming into existence as a human being. It is a compound of:
manussa-, N.m.: human, person, man.
paṭilābha-, N.m.: obtaining, attainment. It is derived from the verb root labh- (to get) with the prefix paṭi- (on to, at).
Nom.Sg. = manussapaṭilābho.

Please abstain from false speech. It was already advised the words "rebirth" & "womb" are not found in the Pali in SN 12.2.

The sutta references provided are pointing to obtaining sense base as highlighted not for meant in referring to descending into the womb .

However, please note, everything in "jati" is born from "attachment" therefore the "paṭilābho" in SN 12.2 is a "paṭilābho" with attachment rather than a paṭilābho with non-attachment.

Sure , but jati is due to upadhi not upadhi itself . Before jati there occurs upadhi and follows by bhava .

[DooDoot]

....

Very good. You are able to research. Now please research the suttas that use the word "paṭilābho" & "lābho" to find if these words mean what you are inferring? Thanks

[asahi]

Now please research the suttas that use the word "paṭilābho" & "lābho" to find if these words mean what you are inferring? Thanks

paṭilābha-, N.m.: obtaining, attainment. It is derived from the verb root labh- (to get) with the prefix paṭi- (on to, at).