Meaning of acquisition of sense base

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DooDoot
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Re: Meaning of acquisition of sense base

Post by DooDoot »

asahi wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:08 am :reading:
sutta please. u can start with Dhp 333 & SN 55.1

based on my research, we will not find paṭilābha used in way to describe sense bases growing on an embryo or leaves growing on a tree

paṭilābha appears to means a person acts willfully to obtain something they did not previously have
Dhp 333 wrote:333. Good is virtue until life's end, good is faith that is steadfast, good is the acquisition (paṭilābha) of wisdom, and good is the avoidance of evil.
SN 55.1 wrote:And between the gaining (paṭilābha) of the four continents and the gaining (paṭilābha) of these four qualities (four factors of stream-entry), the gaining of the four continents is not equal to one sixteenth of the gaining of these four qualities.
AN 8.2 wrote:“Mendicants, there are eight causes and reasons that lead to acquiring the wisdom fundamental to the spiritual life, and to its increase, growth, and full development once it has been acquired.

“Aṭṭhime, bhikkhave, hetū aṭṭha paccayā ādibrahmacariyikāya paññāya appaṭiladdhāya paṭilābhāya, paṭiladdhāya bhiyyobhāvāya vepullāya bhāvanāya pāripūriyā saṁvattanti
AN 8.46 wrote:“Sir, Anuruddha, we are the deities called ‘Loveable’. We wield authority and control over three things.

“mayaṁ, bhante anuruddha, manāpakāyikā nāma devatā tīsu ṭhānesu issariyaṁ kārema vasaṁ vattema.

We can turn [get] any color we want.

Mayaṁ, bhante anuruddha, yādisakaṁ vaṇṇaṁ ākaṅkhāma tādisakaṁ vaṇṇaṁ ṭhānaso paṭilabhāma;

We can get any voice that we want.

yādisakaṁ saraṁ ākaṅkhāma tādisakaṁ saraṁ ṭhānaso paṭilabhāma;

We can get any pleasure that we want.

yādisakaṁ sukhaṁ ākaṅkhāma tādisakaṁ sukhaṁ ṭhānaso paṭilabhāma.
MN 98 refers to the below as "knowing dependent origination":
Who makes his living among men By stealing, you should know Is called a robber, Vasettha; He is not a brahmin.
Who makes his living among men By archery, you should know Is called a soldier, Vasettha; He is not a brahmin.
Who makes his living among men By priestly craft, you should know Is called a chaplain, Vasettha; He is not a brahmin.
Whoever governs among men The town and realm, you should know Is called a ruler, Vasettha; He is not a brahmin.
While MN 98 does not mention "paṭilabhā", based on the above quote from MN 98:

* to be a category of being called a "robber", one must obtain (paṭilabhā) the sense object of booty or stolen goods

* to be a category of being called an "archer", one must obtain (paṭilabhā) the sense object of hitting the target with arrows

* to be a category of being called a "priest", one must obtain (paṭilabhā) the sense object of devotees

* to be a category of being called a "ruker", one must obtain (paṭilabhā) the sense object of power & jurisdiction

Therefore returning to SN 12.2:
And what, bhikkhus, is birth (social identity)? The birth of the various beings into the various categories of beings, their being born, entering, production, the manifestation of their aggregates, the obtaining of their sense objects. This is called birth
If you don't believe "jati" can mean "identity", there is MN 86:
“In that case, Aṅgulimāla, go to that woman and say this:

“Tena hi tvaṁ, aṅgulimāla, yena sā itthī tenupasaṅkama; upasaṅkamitvā taṁ itthiṁ evaṁ vadehi:

‘Ever since I was born in the noble birth, sister, I don’t recall having intentionally taken the life of a living creature. By this truth, may both you and your baby be safe.’”

‘yatohaṁ, bhagini, ariyāya jātiyā jāto, nābhijānāmi sañcicca pāṇaṁ jīvitā voropetā, tena saccena sotthi te hotu, sotthi gabbhassā’”ti.
To obtain (paṭilābha) the Noble Birth, Angulimala was required to obtain (paṭilābha) certain wisdoms & virtues.
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asahi
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Re: Meaning of acquisition of sense base

Post by asahi »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:41 am sutta please.
DooDoot wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:41 am we will not find paṭilābha used in way to describe sense bases growing on an embryo or leaves growing on a tree

Ps . Does the sutta describe aging as wrinkling of skins and death as being a corpse ?


http://nalanda.org.my/e-library/dhammap ... rse182.php


Buddha Vagga (The Buddha)
Verse 182
Kiccho manussa patilābho
kiccham maccāna jivitam
Kiccham saddhamma savanam
kiccho buddhānam uppādo

Rare it is to gain birth as a human being.
Difficult is the life of mortals.
Hard is the hearing of the Sublime Truth.
Rare is the appearance of the enlightened ones.
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DooDoot
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Re: Meaning of acquisition of sense base

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asahi wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 9:58 am Ps . Does the sutta describe aging as wrinkling of skins and death as being a corpse ?
SN 12.2 describes aging as wrinkling of skins and death as corpse of "beings" ?

SN 23.2 and SN 5.10 define "beings" as self-views.

For example, you look in the mirror and see you have grey hair & wrinkling skin and you suffer about it.

Or the doctor tells you you have 3 months to live. You suffer due to the idea of death of yourself.

Or your mother dies and you suffer because of the view "my mother".

SN 12.2 does not define death as death of five aggregates. It defines death as the death of five aggregates of "a being".

I suggest to read the suttas clearly. Good night from here. :hello:
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Re: Meaning of acquisition of sense base

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DooDoot wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:41 am If you don't believe "jati" can mean "identity",
If really jati mean identity ,
then PS would be inconsistent ,

craving - clinging ( to identity ) - becoming - birth ( identity ) !

Tanha - upadana - bhava - jati


:shrug:

:rolleye:
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Re: Meaning of acquisition of sense base

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asahi wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:32 am :rolleye:
MN 44 appears to say identity (sakkaya) is caused by becoming (bhava). Upadana is not identity but merely the arising of a self-view. Identity is more solid & fixed.

Upadana is attachment to a sense object & feeling.

Bhava is the mind "established" ("patiṭṭhita") in that sense object & feeling (AN 3.76)

Jati would be the final consolidation when the mature identity solidifies.

In short, increasing degrees of attachment.

Anyway, I understand you love the "rebirth into the womb" idea. Meaning of acquisition of sense base for rebirthers is sense base grows on the fetus.
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:39 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Meaning of acquisition of sense base

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DooDoot wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:34 am
asahi wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:32 am :rolleye:
MN 44 says identity (sakkaya) is caused by becoming (bhava). Upadana is not identity but merely the arising of a self-view. Identity is more solid & fixed.
MN44 Says identity is caused by Craving .
Am i misreading ?

“Sir Visākha, there is craving, which produces further existence, is accompanied by delight and passion, and seeks delight in various places; namely, craving for sensuality, craving for existence, and craving for non-existence. Sir Visākha, this is called ‘the origin of self-identity’ by the Blessed One.”
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Re: Meaning of acquisition of sense base

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asahi wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:38 am
“Sir Visākha, there is craving, which produces further existence, is accompanied by delight and passion, and seeks delight in various places; namely, craving for sensuality, craving for existence, and craving for non-existence. Sir Visākha, this is called ‘the origin of self-identity’ by the Blessed One.”
Existence = becoming = bhava

"Origin" does not mean "cause".

"Origin" means many conditions combined to produce the final result.

Therefore MN 44 says: "craving producing new becoming is the origination of self-identity".

AN 3.61 makes the meaning of "origination" here clear:
And what is the noble truth of the origination [arising] of stress?

"From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then old age & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
When people say the 2nd noble truth is about the cause of suffering, which is craving, they are wrong. The 2nd noble truth is about the "arising" of suffering or how suffering arises. It is not merely about its preceding cause.
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asahi
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Re: Meaning of acquisition of sense base

Post by asahi »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:40 am
MN 44 says identity (sakkaya) is caused by becoming (bhava) .
={ tanha - upadana - 《bhava - sakkaya》}
But bhava was caused by craving . Ie . Craving ( clinging ) bhava jati
DooDoot wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:40 am When people say the 2nd noble truth is about the cause of suffering, which is craving, they are wrong.

The 2nd noble truth is about the "arising" of suffering or how suffering arises. It is not merely about its preceding cause.
Wrong :juggling:
Last edited by asahi on Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Meaning of acquisition of sense base

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asahi wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:48 am Wrong
No. I proved with AN 3.61 it is not wrong. You the impression of not believing in the suttas. :hello:

The Abhidhamma agrees with you however. You can read the Abhidhamma.

To end, i think the standard Theravada view is "acquisition of sense base" means the sense bases grown on the fetus in the womb. Good luck with that helping you to end suffering.

:popcorn:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Meaning of acquisition of sense base

Post by asahi »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:52 am
asahi wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:48 am Wrong
No. I proved with AN 3.61 it is not wrong. You the impression of not believing in the suttas. :hello:

The Abhidhamma agrees with you however. You can read the Abidhamma.
Second Noble Truth according to AN3.61 is referring to its causes and conditions as ignorance and craving . Sorry Man , you appears mistaken .
Last edited by asahi on Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Meaning of acquisition of sense base

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asahi wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:56 am Sorry Man , you appears muddled .
Please give up false speech. Thanks

The word "arising" does not mean "cause". For example:
"And what is the origination of form? ...feeling? ...perception? ...fabrications? What is the origination of consciousness?

"There is the case where one enjoys, welcomes, & remains fastened. And what does one enjoy & welcome, to what does one remain fastened? One enjoys, welcomes, & remains fastened to form. As one enjoys, welcomes, & remains fastened to form, there arises delight. Any delight in form is clinging. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

SN 22.5
Compare arising (samudaya) above to "cause" ("hetu") below:
“The four great elements, bhikkhu, are the cause and condition for the manifestation of the form aggregate. Contact is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the feeling aggregate. Contact is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the perception aggregate. Contact is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the volitional formations aggregate. Name-and-form is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the consciousness aggregate.

SN 22.82
The suttas above clearly show the "origination" of the five aggregates and the "cause" of the five aggregates are completely different things.

:hello:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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asahi
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Re: Meaning of acquisition of sense base

Post by asahi »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:56 am
Please give up false speech. Thanks

The word "arising" does not mean "cause". For example:
"And what is the origination of form? ...feeling? ...perception? ...fabrications? What is the origination of consciousness?

"There is the case where one enjoys, welcomes, & remains fastened. And what does one enjoy & welcome, to what does one remain fastened? One enjoys, welcomes, & remains fastened to form. As one enjoys, welcomes, & remains fastened to form, there arises delight. Any delight in form is clinging. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

SN 22.5
Compare arising (samudaya) above to "cause" ("hetu") below:
“The four great elements, bhikkhu, are the cause and condition for the manifestation of the form aggregate. Contact is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the feeling aggregate. Contact is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the perception aggregate. Contact is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the volitional formations aggregate. Name-and-form is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the consciousness aggregate.

SN 22.82
The suttas above clearly show the "origination" of the five aggregates and the "cause" of the five aggregates are completely different things.

:hello:
DooDoot wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:56 am
When people say the 2nd noble truth is about the cause of suffering, which is craving, they are wrong.
The 2nd noble truth is about the "arising" of suffering or how suffering arises. It is not merely about its preceding cause .

Pls refer back to your post , you used the word "cause" and "preceding cause" !


Ps . Anyway , thanks .
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Re: Meaning of acquisition of sense base

Post by pegembara »

147. Behold this body — a painted image, a mass of heaped up sores, infirm, full of hankering — of which nothing is lasting or stable!

148. Fully worn out is this body, a nest of disease, and fragile. This foul mass breaks up, for death is the end of life.

149. These dove-colored bones are like gourds that lie scattered about in autumn. Having seen them, how can one seek delight?

150. This city (body) is built of bones, plastered with flesh and blood; within are decay and death, pride and jealousy.

151. Even gorgeous royal chariots wear out, and indeed this body too wears out. But the Dhamma of the Good does not age; thus the Good make it known to the good.

152. The man of little learning grows old like a bull. He grows only in bulk, but, his wisdom does not grow.

153. Through many a birth in samsara have I wandered in vain, seeking the builder of this house (of life). Repeated birth is indeed suffering!

154. O house-builder, you are seen! You will not build this house again. For your rafters are broken and your ridgepole shattered. My mind has reached the Unconditioned; I have attained the destruction of craving. [13]
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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