If you agree that mental images are not the substance of "matter" (substance metaphysics being something the Buddha rejected, by the way) nor "physical" then, if you accept MN 28/MA 30, you cannot say that rūpa is matter or physical since mental dhammas are classified under the rūpa-aggregate. Either MN 28/MA 30 is wrong or rūpa, and so the rūpa-aggregate, means something other than "matter" or "physical". Personally I see no reason to reject MN 28/MA 30 (perfect parallels) and so I do not see "rūpa" as "matter" or "material" but rather "form" or "image" or "appearance", which is in line with the etymology of the word.
Request for a book recommendation
Re: Request for a book recommendation
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Request for a book recommendation
There is a sense in which I agree with you here. Rūpa as form/image/appearance is that which offers resistance. This is true also of mental dhammas, where rūpa there offers resistance to the nāmakāya (see DN 15). It is this mental image which is dropped in order to enter the formless, with the rūpa from the other 5 senses already having been dropped at the 1st Jhāna.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Request for a book recommendation
Lets see.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:59 pmIf you agree that mental images are not the substance of "matter" (substance metaphysics being something the Buddha rejected, by the way) nor "physical" then, if you accept MN 28/MA 30, you cannot say that rūpa is matter or physical since mental dhammas are classified under the rūpa-aggregate. Either MN 28/MA 30 is wrong or rūpa, and so the rūpa-aggregate, means something other than "matter" or "physical". Personally I see no reason to reject MN 28/MA 30 (perfect parallels) and so I do not see "rūpa" as "matter" or "material" but rather "form" or "image" or "appearance", which is in line with the etymology of the word.
https://suttacentral.net/mn28/en/sujato wrote: When a space is enclosed by sticks, creepers, grass, and mud it becomes known as a ‘building’.
Seyyathāpi, āvuso, kaṭṭhañca paṭicca valliñca paṭicca tiṇañca paṭicca mattikañca paṭicca ākāso parivārito agārantveva saṅkhaṁ gacchati;
In the same way, when a space is enclosed by bones, sinews, flesh, and skin it becomes known as a ‘form’.
evameva kho, āvuso, aṭṭhiñca paṭicca nhāruñca paṭicca maṁsañca paṭicca cammañca paṭicca ākāso parivārito rūpantveva saṅkhaṁ gacchati.
Grasping aggregate of a form. It is 4th khandha. not 1st khandha.But when the eye is intact internally and exterior sights come into range and there is corresponding engagement, there is the manifestation of the corresponding type of consciousness.
Yato ca kho, āvuso, ajjhattikañceva cakkhuṁ aparibhinnaṁ hoti, bāhirā ca rūpā āpāthaṁ āgacchanti, tajjo ca samannāhāro hoti. Evaṁ tajjassa viññāṇabhāgassa pātubhāvo hoti.
So now if you see it is grasping aggregate, did it change in your view anything about this?The form produced in this way is included in the grasping aggregate of form. The feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness produced in this way are each included in the corresponding grasping aggregate.
Yaṁ tathābhūtassa rūpaṁ taṁ rūpupādānakkhandhe saṅgahaṁ gacchati, yā tathābhūtassa vedanā sā vedanupādānakkhandhe saṅgahaṁ gacchati, yā tathābhūtassa saññā sā saññupādānakkhandhe saṅgahaṁ gacchati, ye tathābhūtassa saṅkhārā te saṅkhārupādānakkhandhe saṅgahaṁ gacchanti, yaṁ tathābhūtassa viññāṇaṁ taṁ viññāṇupādānakkhandhe saṅgahaṁ gacchati.
Re: Request for a book recommendation
Notice that rūpa here means "shape" not "matter".
Why does "grasping aggregate" change anything? It is still including sights, sounds, tastes, odours, tactile sensations and mental dhammas under the category of "rūpa-aggregate". What is your point? It's hard to follow you here."evameva kho, āvuso, aṭṭhiñca paṭicca nhāruñca paṭicca maṁsañca paṭicca cammañca paṭicca ākāso parivārito rūpantveva saṅkhaṁ gacchati.
But when the eye is intact internally and exterior sights come into range and there is corresponding engagement, there is the manifestation of the corresponding type of consciousness.
Yato ca kho, āvuso, ajjhattikañceva cakkhuṁ aparibhinnaṁ hoti, bāhirā ca rūpā āpāthaṁ āgacchanti, tajjo ca samannāhāro hoti. Evaṁ tajjassa viññāṇabhāgassa pātubhāvo hoti."
well grasping aggregate of a form. It is 4th khandha. not 1st khadha.
The form produced in this way is included in the grasping aggregate of form. The feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness produced in this way are each included in the corresponding grasping aggregate.
Yaṁ tathābhūtassa rūpaṁ taṁ rūpupādānakkhandhe saṅgahaṁ gacchati, yā tathābhūtassa vedanā sā vedanupādānakkhandhe saṅgahaṁ gacchati, yā tathābhūtassa saññā sā saññupādānakkhandhe saṅgahaṁ gacchati, ye tathābhūtassa saṅkhārā te saṅkhārupādānakkhandhe saṅgahaṁ gacchanti, yaṁ tathābhūtassa viññāṇaṁ taṁ viññāṇupādānakkhandhe saṅgahaṁ gacchati.
so now if you see it is grasping aggregate, did it change in your view anything about this?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Request for a book recommendation
mental dhamma as sankharas what produce rupa and also other khandhas? my bad, i think. I need start over as i am not sure if then the 1st khandha is actually product of 4th khandha in reality and only in classification it is put separately from 4th khandha.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 6:19 pmThere is a sense in which I agree with you here. Rūpa as form/image/appearance is that which offers resistance. This is true also of mental dhammas, where rūpa there offers resistance to the nāmakāya (see DN 15). It is this mental image which is dropped in order to enter the formless, with the rūpa from the other 5 senses already having been dropped at the 1st Jhāna.
Re: Request for a book recommendation
The sankhāras are what propel consciousness towards sense experience, throughout life and at the end of this life. Notice in MN 28/MA 30 attention is required to experience the 6 senses. Attention is preceded by intention. However, this is getting off topic.auto wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 6:29 pmmental dhamma as sankharas what produce rupa and also other khandhas? my bad, i think. I need start over as i am not sure if then the 1st khandha is actually product of 4th khandha in reality and only in classification it is put separately from 4th khandha.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 6:19 pmThere is a sense in which I agree with you here. Rūpa as form/image/appearance is that which offers resistance. This is true also of mental dhammas, where rūpa there offers resistance to the nāmakāya (see DN 15). It is this mental image which is dropped in order to enter the formless, with the rūpa from the other 5 senses already having been dropped at the 1st Jhāna.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Request for a book recommendation
do you mean as of like having a room, a third dimension?
or 2 dimensional lines make up a delusion of 3rd dimension?
my point was that the mn 28/ma30 means 4th aggregate which is mental in itself and it is not about 1st khandha, but i don't know if it is classification quirk. If it is jsut a classification then whatever it is, it is mental, normies just don't know that the physical is mental.
Re: Request for a book recommendation
Nothing too technical. It just means shape/image/appearance. When I look at a tree I see a shape/image/appearance. This is all rūpa means. The direct phenomenal experience, rather than the abstract conceptual proliferation and theories which follow such as the tree really being made out of a substance called "matter", or the tree is really an immaterial substance and so Idealism etc etc.
When I see said rūpa (a tree) there is then a hedonic tone (vedanā), the conceptualisation of it (sañña) and, if I am ignorant, intention towards it meaning consciousness gets stuck or "lands" on it.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Request for a book recommendation
i get it,Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 6:42 pmNothing too technical. It just means shape/image/appearance. When I look at a tree I see a shape/image/appearance. This is all rūpa means. The direct phenomenal experience, rather than the abstract conceptual proliferation and theories which follow such as the tree really being made out of a substance called "matter", or the tree is really an immaterial substance and so Idealism etc etc.
When I see said rūpa (a tree) there is then a hedonic tone (vedanā), the conceptualisation of it (sañña) and, if I am ignorant, intention towards it meaning consciousness gets stuck or "lands" on it.
The form produced in this way
But when the eye is intact internally and exterior sights come into range and there is corresponding engagement, there is the manifestation of the corresponding type of consciousness.
The tree image is rupa, but this form belongs to the 4th aggregate not the 1st aggregate. The 1st aggregate is made up of 4 main elements, which actually makes the matter theory plausible.is included in the grasping aggregate of form.
Re: Request for a book recommendation
Thanks for this Trindolex. It's very helpful.
Mike
Trindolex wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:04 pm Chapter 11. Perception, Symbol, Myth of Ven. Sujato's White Bones Red Rot Black Snakes (http://self.gutenberg.org/eBooks/WPLBN0 ... Lotus%2019) has an insightful discussion about the five aggregates:
The five aggregates are ‘form’ (rūpa, ‘matter’, also ‘appearance’), ‘feeling’ (vedanā), ‘perception’ (saññā), ‘volitional activities’ (saṅkhārā), and
‘awareness’ (viññāṇa, often rendered as ‘consciousness’).
Form, in the simplest sense, is the physical realm in general. But its
root meaning of ‘appearance’ suggests an ‘inside-out’ orientation. Form is
not objectively conceived stuff in the world, but our lived experience of
the physical, the objects of the five external (i.e. physical) senses. It also
extends to physical qualities imagined or remembered in the mind, such
as mental imagery.
...
Mike
Re: Request for a book recommendation
No, this is wrong. The 4th aggregate is merely intentions based on the rūpa-aggregate.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Request for a book recommendation
as i understand mn 28 "The form produced" refers to consciousness what manifests when rupa(1st khandha) comes to the vicinity of the eye. Other words vinnana DO link denotes rupa what belongs to the 4th khandha.
Re: Request for a book recommendation
No because it says the same for the other 4 aggregates. When experiencing something through the senses the rūpa that is experienced (visual, mental etc) is the rūpa-aggregate and the consciousness that has come to be (based on said experience) is under the consciousness-aggregate. The 4th aggregate is merely intentions, nothing else. You are over complicating and confusing things.auto wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:09 pmas i understand mn 28 "The form produced" refers to consciousness what manifests when rupa(1st khandha) comes to the vicinity of the eye. Other words vinnana DO link denotes rupa what belongs to the 4th khandha.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Request for a book recommendation
Thanks for the link. I must disagree with Ven. Sujato here. The sphere of "infinite consciousness" along with the other formless attainments are tied with the annihilationists in the suttas/agamas, whilst Yajñavālkya was anything but. The Jhānā seem to be the meditative choice for eternalists, and we see shadows of them in the Upanishads:
यदा पञ्चावतिष्ठन्ते ज्ञानानि मनसा सह ।
बुद्धिश्च न विचेष्टते तामाहुः परमां गतिम् ॥ १० ॥
yadā pañcāvatiṣṭhante jñānāni manasā saha |
buddhiśca na viceṣṭate tāmāhuḥ paramāṃ gatim ||
When the five organs of perception become still, together with the mind,
and the intellect ceases to be active: that is called the highest state.
Kaṭhopaniṣad
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Request for a book recommendation
mn 28 "there is the manifestation of the corresponding type of consciousness". The type of consciousness means the type of 4th aggregate(rupa, feeling, perception, sankhara or consciousness). it is simple as your explanation.Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:16 pmNo because it says the same for the other 4 aggregates. When experiencing something through the senses the rūpa that is experienced (visual, mental etc) is the rūpa-aggregate and the consciousness that has come to be (based on said experience) is under the consciousness-aggregate. The 4th aggregate is merely intentions, nothing else. You are over complicating and confusing things.