Request for a book recommendation

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Inedible
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Request for a book recommendation

Post by Inedible »

Is there a book that you might suggest for identifying the five aggregates in daily life? As concepts, it seems like they make sense. When I try to sort my daily experiences into these categories it gets to be difficult quickly. I think my main problem is in identifying which experiences or aspects of experience fall into which category of aggregate. Sort of like the problem of recognizing the five hindrances as the five hindrances when they arise in meditation. They just can't seem to happen neatly one at a time in isolation.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Request for a book recommendation

Post by Ceisiwr »

Just keep it simple.

Rupa aggregate = any object of the 6 senses.

Vedana aggregate = hedonic tone of the experience.

Sanna aggregate = conceptualisation/designation of it.

Formations aggregate = intentions based on it.

Consciousness aggregate = discriminating awareness.

So, when hearing music the sound is the rupa aggregate and so on. Refer to the end of MN 28 for further reference.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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mikenz66
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Re: Request for a book recommendation

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Inedible, I think Ceisiwr gives a nice simple summary that is very practical.

Ven Analayo's book, Satipatthana Meditation, A Practice Guide, PDF here is also quite practical. He does not specifically consider the aggregates, but on page 30 he mentions:
Similar to the three contemplations of the body that are not
explicitly included [in the book], three contemplations of dharmas from the
Satipaṭṭhāna-sutta are also not in the above list of seven topics.
One of these concerns directing mindfulness to the impermanent
nature of the five aggregates. Such awareness nevertheless
builds up naturally with my instructions for the first three
satipaṭṭhānas. With contemplation of the mind, these instructions
culminate in a comprehensive meditative experience of the
impermanent nature of all aspects of experience, encompassing
body, feeling, perceptions, thoughts, and mental states. The net
result of such practice is fairly similar to contemplation of the
arising and passing away of the five aggregates described in
the Satipaṭṭhāna-sutta.
And regarding daily life (page 32):
Combining central aspects of all four satipaṭṭhānas into a
single and simple mode of practice facilitates maintaining
continuity between detailed satipaṭṭhāna contemplations,
usually undertaken during formal meditation, and everyday
situations. Basic awareness of these four domains of satipaṭṭhāna
meditation in daily life can, according to the situation and our
personal needs, lead on to a closer look at any of these four.
Feeling the body can lead on to exploring other feelings, if this
seems appropriate. A mental state of present-moment awareness
offers an easy entry door into recognizing the condition of our
own mind, should this be relevant. The orientation towards
awakening as the central driving force of contemplation of
dharmas, encapsulated in being aware of change, can lead
to relating what takes place to the teachings in one way
or another.
And perhaps what you say here is a feature, not a bug. You say (my emphasis):
Inedible wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:45 pm Is there a book that you might suggest for identifying the five aggregates in daily life? As concepts, it seems like they make sense. When I try to sort my daily experiences into these categories it gets to be difficult quickly. I think my main problem is in identifying which experiences or aspects of experience fall into which category of aggregate. Sort of like the problem of recognizing the five hindrances as the five hindrances when they arise in meditation. They just can't seem to happen neatly one at a time in isolation.
The aggregates are one possible classification of experience that can be useful as an aid to understanding the experience. As you say, no experience fits neatly into one aspect of such classifications. I think that recognising the nature of the experience ("liking", "not liking", "wanting", etc) is more important than classifying it. Depending on the situation you might classify "not liking" as a feeling, a hindrance, or one of the three unwholesome roots. And, in terms of the aggregates "not liking" would also include aggregates other than feeling, especially perception and formations.
:heart:
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retrofuturist
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Re: Request for a book recommendation

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Inedible,

I cannot help you with book references, unless you consider the Sutta Pitaka a book. :)

If/when you do discern anything you regard as an "aggregate", do not think that what you have found is of any meaning, substance or significance.
Phena Sutta - SN 22.95 wrote:On one occasion the Blessed One was staying among the Ayojjhans on the banks of the Ganges River. There he addressed the monks: "Monks, suppose that a large glob of foam were floating down this Ganges River, and a man with good eyesight were to see it, observe it, & appropriately examine it. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in a glob of foam? In the same way, a monk sees, observes, & appropriately examines any form that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in form?

"Now suppose that in the autumn — when it's raining in fat, heavy drops — a water bubble were to appear & disappear on the water, and a man with good eyesight were to see it, observe it, & appropriately examine it. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in a water bubble? In the same way, a monk sees, observes, & appropriately examines any feeling that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in feeling?

"Now suppose that in the last month of the hot season a mirage were shimmering, and a man with good eyesight were to see it, observe it, & appropriately examine it. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in a mirage? In the same way, a monk sees, observes, & appropriately examines any perception that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in perception?

"Now suppose that a man desiring heartwood, in quest of heartwood, seeking heartwood, were to go into a forest carrying a sharp ax. There he would see a large banana tree: straight, young, of enormous height. He would cut it at the root and, having cut it at the root, would chop off the top. Having chopped off the top, he would peel away the outer skin. Peeling away the outer skin, he wouldn't even find sapwood, to say nothing of heartwood. Then a man with good eyesight would see it, observe it, & appropriately examine it. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in a banana tree? In the same way, a monk sees, observes, & appropriately examines any fabrications that are past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near. To him — seeing them, observing them, & appropriately examining them — they would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in fabrications?

"Now suppose that a magician or magician's apprentice were to display a magic trick at a major intersection, and a man with good eyesight were to see it, observe it, & appropriately examine it. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in a magic trick? In the same way, a monk sees, observes, & appropriately examines any consciousness that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in consciousness?

"Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he grows dispassionate. Through dispassion, he's released. With release there's the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"

That is what the Blessed One said. Having said that, the One Well-Gone, the Teacher, said further:

Form is like a glob of foam;
feeling, a bubble;
perception, a mirage;
fabrications, a banana tree;
consciousness, a magic trick —
this has been taught
by the Kinsman of the Sun.
However you observe them,
appropriately examine them,
they're empty, void
to whoever sees them
appropriately.


Beginning with the body
as taught by the One
with profound discernment:
when abandoned by three things
— life, warmth, & consciousness —
form is rejected, cast aside.
When bereft of these
it lies thrown away,
senseless,
a meal for others.
That's the way it goes:
it's a magic trick,
an idiot's babbling.
It's said to be
a murderer.
No substance here
is found.

Thus a monk, persistence aroused,
should view the aggregates
by day & by night,
mindful,
alert;
should discard all fetters;
should make himself
his own refuge;
should live as if
his head were on fire —
in hopes of the state
with no falling away.
As above, the purpose is to become disenchanted, dispassionate and released. Another good way to do this is through seeing their drawbacks...
SN 12.52 wrote:Dwelling at Savatthi. There the Blessed One said to the monks: "In one who keeps focusing on the allure of clingable phenomena (or: phenomena that offer sustenance = the five aggregates), craving develops. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origin of this entire mass of suffering & stress.

"Just as if a great mass of fire of ten... twenty... thirty or forty cartloads of timber were burning, and into it a man would time & again throw dried grass, dried cow dung, & dried timber, so that the great mass of fire — thus nourished, thus sustained — would burn for a long, long time. In the same way, in one who keeps focusing on the allure of clingable phenomena, craving develops. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origin of this entire mass of suffering & stress.

"Now, in one who keeps focusing on the drawbacks of clingable phenomena, craving ceases. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging, illness & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress.

"Just as if a great mass of fire of ten... twenty... thirty or forty cartloads of timber were burning, into which a man simply would not time & again throw dried grass, dried cow dung, or dried timber, so that the great mass of fire — its original sustenance being consumed, and no other being offered — would, without nutriment, go out. In the same way, in one who keeps focusing on the drawbacks of clingable phenomena, craving ceases. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging, illness & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress."
Alternatively, if we become infatuated with them, it doesn't go so well...
MN 149 wrote:"For him -- infatuated, attached, confused, not remaining focused on their drawbacks -- the five aggregates for sustenance head toward future accumulation. The craving that makes for further becoming -- accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now this & now that -- grows within him. His bodily disturbances & mental disturbances grow. His bodily torments & mental torments grow. His bodily distresses & mental distresses grow. He is sensitive both to bodily stress & mental stress.
Therefore, instead of being infatuated with them, we should not be them.
SN 22.63 wrote:"Lord, if one appropriates the body, one is in bondage to Maara. If one does not appropriate the body, one is free of the Evil One. (Similarly with 'feelings,' 'perceptions,' 'mental formations,' 'consciousness.') That, Lord, is how I understand in full the sense of what the Blessed One has stated in brief."

"Good, good, monk! You have well understood in full the sense of what I stated in brief. If you appropriate the body,... feelings,... perceptions,... mental formations,... consciousness, you are in bondage to Maara. If you do not appropriate, you are free of the Evil One. That is how the sense of what I have stated in brief is to be understood in full."
SN 23.2 wrote:I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. Radha went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?"

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

"Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles: as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel possessive of them. But when they become free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, then they smash them, scatter them, demolish them with their hands or feet and make them unfit for play.

"In the same way, Radha, you too should smash, scatter, & demolish form, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for form.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish feeling, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for feeling.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish perception, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for perception.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish fabrications, and make them unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for fabrications.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish consciousness and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for consciousness — for the ending of craving, Radha, is Unbinding."
Therefore, through disenchantment with aggregates, one is less likely to aggregate (bundle) them in the first place...
SN 22.22 wrote:The five groups are the heavy load,
The seizing of the load is man[self].
Holding it is misery,
Laying down the load is bliss.
Laying down this heavy load,
And no other taking up,
By uprooting all desire,
Hunger's stilled, Nibbana's gained.
Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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DooDoot
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Re: Request for a book recommendation

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 12:03 am Just keep it simple.

Rupa aggregate = any object of the 6 senses.
How can what is wrong be simple?
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Request for a book recommendation

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
DooDoot wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:11 am How can what is wrong be simple?
By being simply wrong? :shrug:

What was described above more closely approximates rūpasaññā than it does the rūpa aggregate.
SN 25.6 wrote:“Mendicants, perception of sights is impermanent, perishing, and changing. Perception of sounds, perception of smells, perception of tastes, perception of touches, and perception of thoughts are impermanent, perishing, and changing.
Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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DooDoot
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Re: Request for a book recommendation

Post by DooDoot »

retrofuturist wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:49 am By being simply wrong? :shrug:
In hindsight, I suppose Ceisiwr is adhering to DN 15. I often forget DN 15 exists. This said, Ceisiwr including the 6th sense base into rupa appears tenuous. .
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Request for a book recommendation

Post by DooDoot »

Inedible wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:45 pm Is there a book that you might suggest for identifying the five aggregates in daily life?
While i have not read it thoroughly, you can try Bhikkhu Buddhadasa's Handbook For Mankind, i.e., the chapter THE THINGS WE CLING TO. Having a quick browse at some paragraphs, the words highlighted below appear questionable:
The first of the mental aggregates is feeling (vedana), which is of three kinds, namely pleasure or gratification, displeasure or suffering, and a neutral kind, which is neither pleasure nor displeasure, but which is a kind of feeling nevertheless. Under normal conditions feelings are always present in us. Every day we are filled with feelings. The Buddha, then, pointed out feeling as one of the components which together go to make up the man.
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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asahi
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Re: Request for a book recommendation

Post by asahi »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 12:03 am

1. Rupa aggregate = any object of the 6 senses.

2. Vedana aggregate = hedonic tone of the experience.

3. Sanna aggregate = conceptualisation/designation of it.

4. Formations aggregate = intentions based on it.

5. Consciousness aggregate = discriminating awareness.
2 3 4 5 are rupa ?

:thanks:
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Inedible
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Re: Request for a book recommendation

Post by Inedible »

Thanks for the answers so far. I want to be more consistent about practicing Dhamma in daily life, but it isn't easy to match up descriptions from texts with my actual experiences. It seems like being able to sort out the five aggregates is an important part of the path.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Request for a book recommendation

Post by Ceisiwr »

asahi wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:17 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 12:03 am

1. Rupa aggregate = any object of the 6 senses.

2. Vedana aggregate = hedonic tone of the experience.

3. Sanna aggregate = conceptualisation/designation of it.

4. Formations aggregate = intentions based on it.

5. Consciousness aggregate = discriminating awareness.
2 3 4 5 are rupa ?

:thanks:
No, only 1.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Request for a book recommendation

Post by Ceisiwr »

retrofuturist wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:49 am Greetings,
DooDoot wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:11 am How can what is wrong be simple?
By being simply wrong? :shrug:

What was described above more closely approximates rūpasaññā than it does the rūpa aggregate.
SN 25.6 wrote:“Mendicants, perception of sights is impermanent, perishing, and changing. Perception of sounds, perception of smells, perception of tastes, perception of touches, and perception of thoughts are impermanent, perishing, and changing.
Metta,
Paul. :)
Sanna is the sanna aggregate. Rupa is the rupa aggregate, which MN 28 clearly shows is any object of the 6 senses. For example, it states that when there is an experience of a sound or mental dhamma the form/image/appearance that comes to be (the sense object) is classed under the rupa aggregate. The same for the other sense objects.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
ToVincent
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Re: Request for a book recommendation

Post by ToVincent »

What, venerable friends, are the five aggregates affected by clinging, [which are] suffering? They are: the material form aggregate affected by clinging; the feeling [aggregate affected by clinging]; the perception [aggregate affected by clinging]; the formations [aggregate affected by clinging]; and the consciousness aggregate affected by clinging.

What, venerable friends, is the material form aggregate affected by clinging?
It is whatever is corporeal, the four great elements and whatever is derived from the four great elements.
MA 30
Definitely no mental dhamma in the Chinese parallel of MN 28.
.
.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Request for a book recommendation

Post by Ceisiwr »

ToVincent wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:23 am
What, venerable friends, are the five aggregates affected by clinging, [which are] suffering? They are: the material form aggregate affected by clinging; the feeling [aggregate affected by clinging]; the perception [aggregate affected by clinging]; the formations [aggregate affected by clinging]; and the consciousness aggregate affected by clinging.

What, venerable friends, is the material form aggregate affected by clinging?
It is whatever is corporeal, the four great elements and whatever is derived from the four great elements.
MA 30
Definitely no mental dhamma in the Chinese parallel of MN 28.
.
.
Its easy to prove a point when you do not quote fully. If you had read further down in MN 30 you would have seen this:
"Venerable friends, if internally the mind sense base is intact, [and if] external mind objects are illuminated by light so that awareness occurs, then mind consciousness comes to arise. Venerable friends, the internal mind sense base and mind objects— [that is,] the external mind objects cognized by mind consciousness—belong to the material form aggregate.115Any feeling [that thus] comes to be belongs to the feeling aggregate. Any perception [that thus] comes to be belongs to the perception aggregate. Any volitional formation [that thus] comes to be belongs to the volitional formations aggregate. Any consciousness [that thus] comes to be belongs to the consciousness aggregate. This is how one contemplates the conjunction of the aggregates. Venerable friends, the World-honored One has also given this teaching: “If one sees dependent origination, one sees the Dharma; if one sees the Dharma, one sees dependent origination.”
Which is a perfect match. What is being translated as "material form" is rūpa. The agama is teaching the same thing as MN 28. Namely, rūpa in terms of the rūpa aggregate is any object of the senses. Naturally this supports the position that rūpa should be defined as "form" or "image" instead of "matter".

"the external mind objects cognized by mind consciousness—belong to the rūpa aggregate"

The same for the other sense objects.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
auto
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Re: Request for a book recommendation

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:53 am ..
Personally(internally) knowing mind objects as an external object of the 'personal consciousness'(seeing). Being aware of seeing and what is being seen.
Point is to know(nanadassana) that what is known there, is physical belonging to the rūpa aggregate made up of 4 main elements.
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