Request for a book recommendation

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Request for a book recommendation

Post by Ceisiwr »

auto wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:19 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:53 am ..
Personally(internally) knowing mind objects as an external object of the 'personal consciousness'(seeing). Being aware of seeing and what is being seen.
Point is to know(nanadassana) that what is known there, is physical belonging to the rūpa aggregate made up of 4 main elements.
This would be an awkward interpretation since mental objects are also classed under rupa along with visual objects etc, and mental dhammas are not physical:

"the external mind objects cognized by mind consciousness—belong to the rūpa aggregate"

I should say it’s awkward for people who interpret rupa as meaning “matter” rather than it’s strict definition of “form” or “image” or “appearance”. Then no such problems arise, and the sutta is perfectly clear.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mjaviem
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Re: Request for a book recommendation

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Inedible wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:45 pm ....
Ajahn Chah wrote:Look within yourself and you will see clearly. As I see it, for the best practice, it isn't necessary to read many books. Take all the books and lock them away. Just read your own mind. You have all been burying yourselves in books from the time you entered school. I think that now you have this opportunity and have the time, take the books, put them in a cupboard and lock the door. Just read your mind
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
JohnK
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Re: Request for a book recommendation

Post by JohnK »

retrofuturist wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:06 am If/when you do discern anything you regard as an "aggregate", do not think that what you have found is of any meaning, substance or significance.
Phena Sutta - SN 22.95 wrote:...To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in form?...feeling?...perception?... fabrications?...consciousness?...Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted...dispassionate...released.
As above, the purpose is to become disenchanted, dispassionate and released. Another good way to do this is through seeing their drawbacks...
SN 12.52 wrote:... In one who keeps focusing on the allure of clingable phenomena (or: phenomena that offer sustenance = the five aggregates), craving develops...Such is the origin of this entire mass of suffering & stress...
"Now, in one who keeps focusing on the drawbacks of clingable phenomena, craving ceases... Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress.
Alternatively, if we become infatuated with them, it doesn't go so well...
MN 149 wrote:...
Therefore, instead of being infatuated with them, we should not be them.
SN 22.63 wrote:.. If one does not appropriate...one is free
SN 23.2 wrote:...you too should smash, scatter, & demolish form...feeling... perception...fabrications...consciousness...Practice for the ending of craving...for the ending of craving...is Unbinding.
Therefore, through disenchantment with aggregates, one is less likely to aggregate (bundle) them in the first place...
SN 22.22 wrote:The five groups are the heavy load...
Laying down the load is bliss...
By uprooting all desire...
Nibbana's gained.
Metta,
Paul. :)
:goodpost:
I appreciate the clarity and the effort put into this (now heavily edited) post -- and "keeping the eye on the ball" -- liberation.
:anjali:
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
auto
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Re: Request for a book recommendation

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:22 pm
auto wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:19 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:53 am ..
Personally(internally) knowing mind objects as an external object of the 'personal consciousness'(seeing). Being aware of seeing and what is being seen.
Point is to know(nanadassana) that what is known there, is physical belonging to the rūpa aggregate made up of 4 main elements.
This would be an awkward interpretation since mental objects are also classed under rupa along with visual objects etc, and mental dhammas are not physical:

"the external mind objects cognized by mind consciousness—belong to the rūpa aggregate"

I should say it’s awkward for people who interpret rupa as meaning “matter” rather than it’s strict definition of “form” or “image”. Then no such problems arise, and the sutta is perfectly clear.
what problems? that one needs develop samadhi to be able to derive that what one sees is made up of four primary elements?
https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=39902 wrote: ñāṇadassanāya cittaṃ abhinīharati abhininnāmeti.
—they extend it and project it toward knowledge and vision.
So evaṃ pajānāti:
They understand:
‘ayaṃ kho me kāyo rūpī
‘This body of mine is physical.
cātu-mahā-bhūtiko
It’s made up of the four primary elements,
mātā-pettika-sambhavo
produced by mother and father,
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Request for a book recommendation

Post by Ceisiwr »

auto wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:54 pm [
what problems? that one needs develop samadhi to be able to derive that what one sees is made up of four primary elements?
The problem of classing mind objects under rūpa if rūpa is defined as "matter" or "physical".

‘ayaṃ kho me kāyo rūpī
‘This body of mine is shaped"
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
auto
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Re: Request for a book recommendation

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:04 pm
auto wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:54 pm [
what problems? that one needs develop samadhi to be able to derive that what one sees is made up of four primary elements?
The problem of classing mind objects under rūpa if rūpa is defined as "matter" or "physical".

‘ayaṃ kho me kāyo rūpī
‘This body of mine is shaped"
Its what you do, classing mind object under rupa and seeing it awkward then trying to push image to mean rupa.
justindesilva
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Re: Request for a book recommendation

Post by justindesilva »

Inedible wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:45 pm Is there a book that you might suggest for identifying the five aggregates in daily life? As concepts, it seems like they make sense. When I try to sort my daily experiences into these categories it gets to be difficult quickly. I think my main problem is in identifying which experiences or aspects of experience fall into which category of aggregate. Sort of like the problem of recognizing the five hindrances as the five hindrances when they arise in meditation. They just can't seem to happen neatly one at a time in isolation.
Pls. try " anatta lakkana sutta- encyclopediaofbuddhism" on internet.
It is not a book, but a good explanation".
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Request for a book recommendation

Post by Ceisiwr »

auto wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:24 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:04 pm
auto wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:54 pm [
what problems? that one needs develop samadhi to be able to derive that what one sees is made up of four primary elements?
The problem of classing mind objects under rūpa if rūpa is defined as "matter" or "physical".

‘ayaṃ kho me kāyo rūpī
‘This body of mine is shaped"
Its what you do, classing mind object under rupa and seeing it awkward then trying to push image to mean rupa.
The sutta/agama themselves class mind objects under the rūpa-aggregate. I'm merely pointing out the contradiction in classing rūpa as "matter" or "physical" when mental dhammas are also classed under the category of the rūpa-aggregate. Pointing out that the strict definition of rūpa is "image" or "form" etc is merely pointing to a fact. If we understand rūpa by it's strict definition, rather than the Abhidhammic or commentarial one which is much more concerned with ontology and abstract theories, then the sutta makes sense and no contradiction arises in classing mental dhammas under the rūpa-aggregate. I'm not the one here who has to go through mental gymnastics to make their definition fit.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
justindesilva
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Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: Request for a book recommendation

Post by justindesilva »

Inedible wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 6:16 am Thanks for the answers so far. I want to be more consistent about practicing Dhamma in daily life, but it isn't easy to match up descriptions from texts with my actual experiences. It seems like being able to sort out the five aggregates is an important part of the path.
You may download " a discourse on anattalakkanasutta by mahasi sayadaw"
Trindolex
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Re: Request for a book recommendation

Post by Trindolex »

Chapter 11. Perception, Symbol, Myth of Ven. Sujato's White Bones Red Rot Black Snakes (http://self.gutenberg.org/eBooks/WPLBN0 ... Lotus%2019) has an insightful discussion about the five aggregates:
The five aggregates are ‘form’ (rūpa, ‘matter’, also ‘appearance’), ‘feeling’ (vedanā), ‘perception’ (saññā), ‘volitional activities’ (saṅkhārā), and
‘awareness’ (viññāṇa, often rendered as ‘consciousness’).
Form, in the simplest sense, is the physical realm in general. But its
root meaning of ‘appearance’ suggests an ‘inside-out’ orientation. Form is
not objectively conceived stuff in the world, but our lived experience of
the physical, the objects of the five external (i.e. physical) senses. It also
extends to physical qualities imagined or remembered in the mind, such
as mental imagery.
Feeling is a very simply-treated category, just the pleasant, painful, or
neutral tone of experience. It relates closely to the most primal of gut instincts and desires. Vedanā is characteristic of the animal realm, with
its intense suffering and instant gratification.
Perception is more subtle, filtering and making sense of experience.
While this—like all the aggregates—is also shared with animals, humans
develop this faculty much further through the use of symbols and signs,
setting up tokens for recognition. These ‘signs’ are the basis of language
and human culture in general. Even today, a sense of identity is evoked
through recognition of a common sign: religious icon, flag, football club
colors.
Saṅkhāra is, narrowly, volition, and relates to our sense of ourselves as
independent agents exercising our free will. It manifests as thought, concepts, plans, and is future oriented, whereas saññā looks to the past. But
the most critical aspect of saṅkhāra is that it is ethical: one chooses to do
good or bad. The three previous aggregates are pre-ethical; there is no
notion of good or bad suggested in their definitions. Later theorists of the
Abhidhamma decided to use saṅkhāra as a catch-all category, including a
long list of any and all miscellaneous mental factors that didn’t fit into
the other aggregates. But this lumps all kinds of primitive and sophisticated mental qualities in together, entirely obscuring the developmental
structure of the five aggregates.
Viññāṇa stands in apposition to all of these things; it isthe knowing, they
are the known.
When the stuff of experience is set to one side, viññāṇa
remains. In everyday experience it is the ‘awareness of’ the six kinds of
sense objects, and is reckoned as sixfold. Refined and cultivated it is the
radiant awareness of ‘infinite consciousness’. Historically, this is where the
pre-Buddhist Upaniṣadic yogis such as Yajñavālkya found the Self,3
and
today it forms the ultimate reach of countless popular spiritual writers.
Viññāṇa is normally translated as ‘consciousness’, but this is meant in the
sense of simple awareness, as opposed to its use in psychological discourse,
where consciousness is used in a more complex sense as the totality of
thoughts and feelings, or even as self-reflective awareness.
The discussion continues in the book. I find the five aggregates to be a very profound teaching that permeate all of the dhamma.

He has also written earlier on the topic in A Swift Pair of Messengers (https://holybooks-lichtenbergpress.netd ... engers.pdf)

Here is a quote from a discussion on perception (page 104):
One of the key factors in meditation is perception (såñña). Perception is a relatively shallow mode of
knowing which recognizes the surface features of phenomena, interpreting them in terms of past experience. It
marks off one section of sense data so that it can be treated as a unit. For example, it is perception that
generalizes and summarizes the data in a visual image, recognizing that ‘This is blue, this is yellow, this is red.’
It filters, simplifies, and abstracts the sheer bewildering quantity of sense data, processing it in terms of
manageable information, symbols, and labels. Perception forms the basis of concepts. While perception
recognizes common features of phenomena, concepts combine a group or class of features into a mental image
or idea. In order to construct something as ephemeral as a concept, the mind must be actively diverted from the
clamor of sense experience and applied inwards. The formation of a concept can be analyzed in two stages.
Firstly, there is the initial conception of a verbal idea, a thought (vitakka). Secondly, a sustained series of these
thoughts is linked up to form a coherent consideration (vicåra). At this stage, this thinking and considering is
still preoccupied with perceptions of sense experience; but the mind is able for the first time to be aware of a
mental object distinct from that experience, and hence by reflection to infer the existence of a ‘mind’ as
experiencer. This development, though crucial for both psychology and philosophy, introduces a subtle
distortion in experience. By representing the world as more coherent and meaningful than it really is, it invites
an insidious obsession with the fantasy realm of concepts, the fairy castles of the imagination, divorced from the
uncertainties of reality.
auto
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Re: Request for a book recommendation

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:28 pm
auto wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:24 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:04 pm

The problem of classing mind objects under rūpa if rūpa is defined as "matter" or "physical".

‘ayaṃ kho me kāyo rūpī
‘This body of mine is shaped"
Its what you do, classing mind object under rupa and seeing it awkward then trying to push image to mean rupa.
The sutta/agamas themselves class mind objects under the rūpa-aggregate. I'm merely pointing out the contradiction in classing rūpa as "matter" or "physical" when mental dhammas are also classed under the category of the rūpa-aggregate. Pointing out that the strict definition of rūpa is "image" or "form" etc is merely pointing to a fact. If we understand rūpa by it's strict definition, rather than the Abhidhammic or commentarial one which is much more concerned with ontology and theories, then the sutta makes sense and no contradiction arises in classing mental dhammas under the rūpa-aggregate. I'm not the one here who has to go through mental gymnastics to make their definition work.
Needle is prickly(rupi), when you touch needle with the finger. The prickly doesn't belong to the needle, it means needle affected your rupa.
Body(kaya) gets affected by the cold.. hence it is rupa since rupa is that way defined.
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.79/en/sujato wrote: And why do you call it form?
Kiñca, bhikkhave, rūpaṁ vadetha?
It’s deformed; that’s why it’s called ‘form’.
Ruppatīti kho, bhikkhave, tasmā ‘rūpan’ti vuccati.
Deformed by what?
Kena ruppati?
Deformed by cold, heat, hunger, and thirst, and deformed by the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, and reptiles.
Sītenapi ruppati, uṇhenapi ruppati, jighacchāyapi ruppati, pipāsāyapi ruppati, ḍaṁsamakasavātātapasarīsapasamphassenapi ruppati. Variant: ḍaṁsamakasavātātapasarīsapasamphassenapi → … siriṁsapasamphassenapi (bj, pts1ed); … sirīsapasamphassenapi (sya-all)
It’s deformed; that’s why it’s called ‘form’.
Ruppatīti kho, bhikkhave, tasmā ‘rūpan’ti vuccati.
Mental dhamma's are not classed under rupa, you just don't understand the rope and snake simile, i'm afraid.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Request for a book recommendation

Post by Ceisiwr »

auto wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:10 pm
And why do you call it form?
Kiñca, bhikkhave, rūpaṁ vadetha?
It’s deformed; that’s why it’s called ‘form’.
Ruppatīti kho, bhikkhave, tasmā ‘rūpan’ti vuccati.
Deformed by what?
Kena ruppati?
Deformed by cold, heat, hunger, and thirst, and deformed by the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, and reptiles.
Sītenapi ruppati, uṇhenapi ruppati, jighacchāyapi ruppati, pipāsāyapi ruppati, ḍaṁsamakasavātātapasarīsapasamphassenapi ruppati. Variant: ḍaṁsamakasavātātapasarīsapasamphassenapi → … siriṁsapasamphassenapi (bj, pts1ed); … sirīsapasamphassenapi (sya-all)
It’s deformed; that’s why it’s called ‘form’.
Ruppatīti kho, bhikkhave, tasmā ‘rūpan’ti vuccati.
I see no evidence of "matter" here.
Mental dhamma's are not classed under rupa, you just don't understand the rope and snake simile, i'm afraid.
MN 28/MA 30 say otherwise. Thank you for reminding me though of the tortuous lengths some people go through to avoid saying "I was wrong".
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
auto
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Re: Request for a book recommendation

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:17 pm I see no evidence of "matter" here.
are you pulling me from a leg here?
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:17 pm MN 28/MA 30 say otherwise. Thank you for reminding me though of the tortuous lengths some people go through to avoid saying "I was wrong".
from your quote
"Venerable friends, if internally the mind sense base is intact, [and if] external mind objects are illuminated by light so that awareness occurs, then mind consciousness comes to arise...
now look at this,
https://suttacentral.net/an4.41/en/sujato wrote:And what is the way of developing immersion further that leads to gaining knowledge and vision?
Katamā ca, bhikkhave, samādhibhāvanā bhāvitā bahulīkatā ñāṇadassanappaṭilābhāya saṁvattati?
It’s when a mendicant focuses on the perception of light, concentrating on the perception of day,
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu ālokasaññaṁ manasi karoti, divāsaññaṁ adhiṭṭhāti—
regardless of whether it’s night or day.
yathā divā tathā rattiṁ, yathā rattiṁ tathā divā.
regardless if it is day or night, you can have perception of light and thus mental image of an object what belongs to the rupa - You can use mental image to access rupa.
whatever actually since it is too farfetched if you have trouble already with the term matter.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Request for a book recommendation

Post by Ceisiwr »

auto wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:38 pm
are you pulling me from a leg here?
I think you wanted to say “are you pulling my leg”.

"Venerable friends, if internally the mind sense base is intact, [and if] external mind objects are illuminated by light so that awareness occurs, then mind consciousness comes to arise...
now look at this,...
regardless if it is day or night, you can have perception of light and thus mental image of an object what belongs to the rupa - You can use mental image to access rupa.
A mental image is not “matter” or “physical”.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
auto
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Request for a book recommendation

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:44 pm A mental image is not “matter” or “physical”.
I agree it is not, but may remind you about rupa. Like image of a sofa can remind you how you sit there and getting affected by it and thus arousing comfortable feeling.
It seem this is settled now.
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