Are there mendicants among the Nagas?

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Coëmgenu
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Are there mendicants among the Nagas?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Here is a quote:
SN 29.3 Uposatha Sutta: The Uposatha (1)

At Savatthi. Then a certain bhikkhu approached the Blessed One, paid homage to him, sat down to one side, and said to him: "Venerable sir, what is the cause and reason why some egg-born nagas here observe the Uposatha and relinquish [concern for] their bodies?"

"Here, bhikkhus, some egg-born nagas think thus: 'In the past we acted ambivalently in body, speech, and mind. Having done so, with the breakup of the body, after death, we were reborn in the company of egg-born nagas. If today we praise good conduct of body, speech, and mind, then with the breakup of the body, after death, we shall be reborn in a happy destination, in a heavenly world. Come now, let us practice good conduct of body, speech, and mind.' "

"This, bhikkhu, is the cause and reason why some egg-born nagas here observe the Uposatha and relinquish [concern for] their bodies."

​(Egg born dragons sometimes transform their bodies and observe the sabbath in order to get a good rebirth.)
It is from here: http://www.suttas.com/chapter-8-naga-sa ... nagas.html

The material in (round brackets) is editorial, I believe. It combines this story with the story of a Naga being caught as a monk when he reverted to his serpentine form asleep. The editorial material might be from the commentaries, I would not know if that were the case.

This implies that the Nagas have a samgha and observe the uposatha and probably practice the Dhammavinaya. How does this square with Nagas being banned from the (human) samgha? If Nagas have their own samgha, do the gods have samghas similarly? They say the Buddha taught the Abhidharma in heaven to the Tuṣita gods. It would make sense if the Buddha taught his Dharma to a retinue of disciples. Or is there no heavenly (and also Nagic) samgha in Theravada Buddhism? I recall the story of a man who despaired because he would be reborn as a particular kind of deva and would be unable to hear the Buddha preach in his lifetime. This entire thread is also to-do with the notion of a "precious human birth."
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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robertk
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Re: Are there mendicants among the Nagas?

Post by robertk »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 12:40 pm Here is a quote:
SN 29.3 Uposatha Sutta: The Uposatha (1)

At Savatthi. Then a certain bhikkhu approached the Blessed One, paid homage to him, sat down to one side, and said to him: "Venerable sir, what is the cause and reason why some egg-born nagas here observe the Uposatha and relinquish [concern for] their bodies?"

"Here, bhikkhus, some egg-born nagas think thus: 'In the past we acted ambivalently in body, speech, and mind. Having done so, with the breakup of the body, after death, we were reborn in the company of egg-born nagas. If today we praise good conduct of body, speech, and mind, then with the breakup of the body, after death, we shall be reborn in a happy destination, in a heavenly world. Come now, let us practice good conduct of body, speech, and mind.' "

"This, bhikkhu, is the cause and reason why some egg-born nagas here observe the Uposatha and relinquish [concern for] their bodies."

​(Egg born dragons sometimes transform their bodies and observe the sabbath in order to get a good rebirth.)
It is from here: http://www.suttas.com/chapter-8-naga-sa ... nagas.html

The material in (round brackets) is editorial, I believe. It combines this story with the story of a Naga being caught as a monk when he reverted to his serpentine form asleep. The editorial material might be from the commentaries, I would not know if that were the case.

This implies that the Nagas have a samgha and observe the uposatha and probably practice the Dhammavinaya. How does this square with Nagas being banned from the (human) samgha? If Nagas have their own samgha, do the gods have samghas similarly? They say the Buddha taught the Abhidharma in heaven to the Tuṣita gods. It would make sense if the Buddha taught his Dharma to a retinue of disciples. Or is there no heavenly (and also Nagic) samgha in Theravada Buddhism? I recall the story of a man who despaired because he would be reborn as a particular kind of deva and would be unable to hear the Buddha preach in his lifetime. This entire thread is also to-do with the notion of a "precious human birth."
He took human shape and ordained in the Bhikkhu Sangha - there is no Naga sangha.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Are there mendicants among the Nagas?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Yes, that is the particular Naga famous for that story. Is the commentarial tradition that this sutta refers to that episode specifically? Even if it does, it seems to imply that this is or was at one point semi-common, i.e. more than one snake would ordain and/or disguise themselves for the monastic uposatha specifically. Or they had and/or have their own that they didn't need to disguise themselves to attend and the one who did disguise himself was not welcome at his own uposatha and tried to crash a human one.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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robertk
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Re: Are there mendicants among the Nagas?

Post by robertk »

There was only the one time- after that incident the question that all postulants are asked was added to the ordination procedure "Are you human?"
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Re: Are there mendicants among the Nagas?

Post by sphairos »

Don't take ridiculous mythology for real. It has nothing to do with Buddhism.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Are there mendicants among the Nagas?

Post by Coëmgenu »

sphairos wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 12:56 pm Don't take ridiculous mythology for real. It has nothing to do with Buddhism.
Whether or not you consider Nagas real, the Buddha did and those of his time. This sutta was compiled and/or written by people who believed that Nagas are as real as the nose on your face and treated them as sensibly as you would any valid object of cognition.
robertk wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 12:51 pmThere was only the one time [...]
The sutta says "Nagas" in the plural. It is perfectly possible that only one Naga ever did this and still the sutta says "Nagas." We don't need to read more into the plural than we need to, but it does indeed use a plural, and that has ramifications. That being said, hypotheticals often appear in plurality when they are actually singular.

"Why do birds sit on electrical wires?" could be a question someone asks even if they only ever saw one bird sitting on an electrical wire.

"Why do Nagas attend uposatha?" could be a question someone asks even if they only know of one who did so.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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robertk
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Re: Are there mendicants among the Nagas?

Post by robertk »

Yes, it is possible after that, that other nagas might have attempted to ordain - presumably they would have been stymied at the questioning stage though.
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Re: Are there mendicants among the Nagas?

Post by Dhammanando »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 12:40 pm This implies that the Nagas have a samgha and observe the uposatha and probably practice the Dhammavinaya.
It means only that they kept the eight precepts and practised dāna in the same way that certain other spiritually superior animals do, as described in various Jātakas.

From the opening of the Sasa Jātaka:
Once upon a time when Brahmadatta was reigning in Benares, the Bodhisatta came to life as a young hare and lived in a wood. On one side of this wood was the foot of a mountain, on another side a river, and on the third side a border-village. The hare had three friends—a monkey, a jackal and an otter. These four wise creatures lived together and each of them got his food on his own hunting-ground, and in the evening they again came together. The hare in his wisdom by way of admonition preached the Truth to his three companions, teaching that alms are to be given, the moral law to be observed, and holy days to be kept. They accepted his admonition and went each to his own part of the jungle and dwelt there.

And so in the course of time the Bodhisatta one day observing the sky, and looking at the moon knew that the next day would be a fast-day, and addressing his three companions he said, “To-morrow is a fast-day. Let all three of you take upon you the moral precepts, and observe the holy day. To one that stands fast in moral practice, almsgiving brings a great reward. Therefore feed any beggars that come to you by giving them food from your own table.” They readily assented, and abode each in his own place of dwelling.

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/ja316
This isn't at odds with the Vinaya account referred to earlier, for the grounds of the Buddha's refusal to ordain nāgas was the absence of the brahmacariyā in the animal realm, which doesn't mean the absence of dhammic virtues that fall short of a complete brahmacariyā.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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mikenz66
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Re: Are there mendicants among the Nagas?

Post by mikenz66 »

Bhante,
Dhammanando wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:02 pm This isn't at odds with the Vinaya account referred to earlier, for the grounds of the Buddha's refusal to ordain nāgas was the absence of the brahmacariyā in the animal realm, which doesn't mean the absence of dhammic virtues that fall short of a complete brahmacariyā.
I'm afraid I'm having difficulty understanding your last phrase (highlighted). Is there a typo?

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Re: Are there mendicants among the Nagas?

Post by Dhammanando »

mikenz66 wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:08 pm Bhante,
Dhammanando wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:02 pm This isn't at odds with the Vinaya account referred to earlier, for the grounds of the Buddha's refusal to ordain nāgas was the absence of the brahmacariyā in the animal realm, which doesn't mean the absence of dhammic virtues that fall short of a complete brahmacariyā.
I'm afraid I'm having difficulty understanding your last phrase (highlighted). Is there a typo?
No, it seems clear enough to me. But let me try expressing it in a different way:

This isn't at odds with the Vinaya account referred to earlier, for the Buddha's refusal to ordain nāgas was on account of the impossibility of animals living the brahmacariyā. This doesn't, however, exclude the possibility of animals developing dhammic virtues of a lower order.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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mikenz66
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Re: Are there mendicants among the Nagas?

Post by mikenz66 »

Dhammanando wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:49 pm No, it seems clear enough to me. But let me try expressing it in a different way:

This isn't at odds with the Vinaya account referred to earlier, for the Buddha's refusal to ordain nāgas was on account of the impossibility of animals living the brahmacariyā. This doesn't, however, exclude the possibility of animals developing dhammic virtues of a lower order.
Ah, OK, thank you, it's clear now.

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Re: Are there mendicants among the Nagas?

Post by dharmacorps »

I have heard a few stories of Thai Ajahns teaching animals to keep the 5 precepts, it is interesting that there is pretty decent sutta support of this. I would think only certain animals could do this-- primarily vegetarians or scavengers.
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