MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

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Coëmgenu
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Re: MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

Post by Coëmgenu »

suaimhneas wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 9:36 pmIt's just that this talk about cessation of breathing in the 4th jhana in a number of suttas (or cessation of the bodily formation in MN44) would seem to me to be a rather superfluous/redundant point if it is not actually experienced by the meditator.
If we take that breath ceases "literally," the cessation of breath becomes an external sign observable to others not in the 4th dhyāna, i.e. they notice a meditator has stopped breathing but is not dead. That is the reading that becomes more natural if awareness of breath is gone by entry into the first dhyāna, which is to say if there is no kāyavijñāna in the 1st dhyāna, as I see things.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

Post by Coëmgenu »

Also, if there is no kāyavijñāna in the first dhyāna, there are no mahābhūta kasinas in it either, including perception of air. How do Theravādins get around this? I assume they have to make the air kasina of breath into a kind of non-bodily "para-mental breathing," but that is just a guess.

Earlier, I think on this thread but I'm not sure, there was mention of how in Vimuktimarga the breath is a tactile kasina. It seems to me tactile kasinas in and of themselves presume what is being called "non-absorbed jhāna" here, because they require kāyavijñāna or even cakṣurvijñāna.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

Post by Coëmgenu »

Furthermore, so-called "tactile" kasinas pose another problem to the "classical Theravādin," as I see things, unless I am mistaken. Ekaggatā in jhāna here is being framed as "only manoviññāṇa." 5 senses are absent along with their corresponding cognitions. If deep absorption into a tactile kasina were possible, then only kāyaviññāṇa or a different cognition would be present. This constitutes multiple problems, because kāyaviññāṇa does not operate in a vacuum and if it did would only be capable of so many kinds of cognitions of feelings, insufficient for the range of the experience of authentic entrance into the jhānāni as they are understood in the orthodox and commentarial Theravāda. So, as I see things, from that perspective, "tactile" kasinas are likely an incoherent proposal.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 10:31 pm Also, if there is no kāyavijñāna in the first dhyāna, there are no mahābhūta kasinas in it either, including perception of air. How do Theravādins get around this? I assume they have to make the air kasina of breath into a kind of non-bodily "para-mental breathing," but that is just a guess.
What is in the jhānā is a conceptual image. I would say rūpa, but the commentaries and Visuddhimagga would say nimitta.
Furthermore, so-called "tactile" kasinas pose another problem to the "classical Theravādin," as I see things, unless I am mistaken. Ekaggatā in jhāna here is being framed as "only manoviññāṇa." 5 senses are absent along with their corresponding cognitions. If deep absorption into a tactile kasina were possible, then only kāyaviññāṇa or a different cognition would be present. This constitutes multiple problems, because kāyaviññāṇa does not operate in a vacuum and if it did would only be capable of so many kinds of cognitions of feelings, insufficient for the range of the experience of authentic entrance into the jhānāni as they are understood in the orthodox and commentarial Theravāda. So, as I see things, from that perspective, "tactile" kasinas are likely an incoherent proposal.
Interesting points. I used to defend said rūpa/nimittas but I've began to doubt this as of late. Then again there are arguments that its not really tactile anymore than white lights are really visual, since you aren't actually seeing anything with the eyes. Probably for someone else to defend there. Interestingly the later sub-commentary to the Visuddhimagga relegated these tactile experiences to the learning sign.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

Post by Ceisiwr »

This is the relevant section from the Visuddhimagga:
214. When he does so in this way, the sign59 soon appears to him. But it is not the same for all; on the contrary, some say [Vimuttimagga] that when it appears it does so to certain people producing a light touch like cotton or silk-cotton or a draught.
215. But this is the exposition given in the commentaries: It appears to some like a star or a cluster of gems or a cluster of pearls, to others with a rough touch like that of silk-cotton seeds or a peg made of heartwood, to others like a long braid string or a wreath of flowers or a puff of smoke, to others like a stretched-out cobweb or a film of cloud or a lotus flower or a chariot wheel or the moon’s disk or the sun’s disk.
216. In fact this resembles an occasion when a number of bhikkhus are sitting together reciting a suttanta. When a bhikkhu asks, “What does this sutta appear like to you?” one says, “It appears to me like a great mountain torrent,” another “To me it is like a line of forest trees,” another “To me it is like a spreading fruit tree giving cool shade.” For the one sutta appears to them differently because of the difference in their perception. Similarly this single meditation subject appears differently because of difference in perception.60 It is born of perception, its source is perception, it is produced by perception. Therefore it should be understood that when it appears differently it is because of difference in perception.
217. And here, the consciousness that has in-breath as its object is one, the consciousness that has out-breath as its object is another, and the consciousness that has the sign as its object is another. For the meditation subject reaches neither absorption nor even access in one who has not got these three things [clear]. But it reaches access and also absorption in one who has got these three things [clear]. For this is said:

“Sign, in-breath, out-breath, are not object
Of a single consciousness;
By one who knows not these three things
Development is not obtained.
Sign, in-breath, out-breath, are not object
Of a single consciousness;
By one who does know these three things
Development can be obtained” (Patis I 170). [286]
What I find most interesting is in comparing what is said here with outsider texts:

34 ‘When yoga is being performed, the forms that come first, producing apparitions in Brahman, are those of misty smoke, sun, fire, wind, fire-flies, lightnings, and a crystal moon.’ - Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad

"But this is the exposition given in the commentaries: It appears to some like a star or a cluster of gems or a cluster of pearls, to others with a rough touch like that of silk-cotton seeds or a peg made of heartwood, to others like a long braid string or a wreath of flowers or a puff of smoke, to others like a stretched-out cobweb or a film of cloud or a lotus flower or a chariot wheel or the moon’s disk or the sun’s disk." Visuddhimagga

I have begun to wonder if images such as these, the "misty smoke, sun, fire, star, moon-disk" etc are what was originally meant by the Kasiṇa.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
BrokenBones
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Re: MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

Post by BrokenBones »

Although it's written long after the suttas so is less reliable (but it's 500 years before the visuddhimagga), I find that the vimuttimagga offers an interesting insight. It's definitely body orientated and suggests where some meditators go wrong and get sidetracked with beautiful 'signs'...


"To the yogin who attends to the incoming breath with mind that is cleansed
4
of the nine lesser defilements the image arises with a pleasant feeling similar
to that which is produced in the action of spinning cotton or silk cotton. Also,
............(notes)
....If, when the breath comes in or goes out, the yogin considers

Subjects of Meditation
159
it is likened to the pleasant feeling produced by a breeze.
1
Thus in breathing
in and out, air touches the nose or the lip and causes the setting-up of air per-
2
ception mindfulness. This does not depend on colour or form. This is
called the image. If the yogin develops the image and increases it at the nose-tip,
3
between the eye-brows, on the forehead or establishes it in several places, he feels as if his head were rilled with air. Through increasing in this way his whole body is charged with bliss. This is called perfection.
And again, there is a yogin: he sees several images from the beginning. He sees various forms such as smoke, mist, dust, sand of gold, or he experiences something similar to the pricking of a needle or to an ant's bite. If his mind does not become clear regarding these different images, he will be confused.


Thus he fulfils overturning and does not gain the perception of respiration. If his mind becomes clear, the yogin does not experience confusion. He attends to respiration and he does not cause the arising of other perceptions. Meditating thus he is able to end confusion and acquire the subtle image. And he attends to respiration with mind that is free. That image is free. Because that image is free, desire arises. Desire being free, that yogin attends to respiration and becomes joyful. Desire and joy being free, he attends to respiration with equipoise. Equipoise, desire and joy being free, he attends to respiration, and his mind is not disturbed. If his mind is not disturbed, he will destroy the hindrances, and arouse the meditation (jhana) factors. Thus this yogin will reach the calm and sublime fourth meditation, jhana. This is as was fully taught above."

http://urbandharma.org/pdf1/Path_of_Fre ... imagga.pdf

The whole section on breathing is worth a read and highlights the body in jhana.
suaimhneas
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Re: MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

Post by suaimhneas »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 10:25 pm
suaimhneas wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 9:36 pmIt's just that this talk about cessation of breathing in the 4th jhana in a number of suttas (or cessation of the bodily formation in MN44) would seem to me to be a rather superfluous/redundant point if it is not actually experienced by the meditator.
If we take that breath ceases "literally," the cessation of breath becomes an external sign observable to others not in the 4th dhyāna, i.e. they notice a meditator has stopped breathing but is not dead. That is the reading that becomes more natural if awareness of breath is gone by entry into the first dhyāna, which is to say if there is no kāyavijñāna in the 1st dhyāna, as I see things.
OK, thanks, your argument is clearer to me now and seems reasonable to me.
ToVincent
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Re: MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

Post by ToVincent »

suaimhneas wrote:MN 137
The Sālayatanavibhanga-sutta and its Chinese and Tibetan parallels apply their respective negative category (i.e., “worldly” or “based on attachment”) to the following:

- the pleasure derived from sense-objects,
- the sadness that arises from not obtaining pleasurable sense-objects,
- the indifference of the fool towards sense-objects.

In contrast, what pertains to renunciation are:

- the pleasure that arises from insight into the true nature of sense-objects,
- the sadness that arises from yearning for liberation,
- the equanimity that arises from insight into the true nature of sense-objects.

Although agreeing in their analysis, the three versions differ in the sequence of their presentation.

The Pāli version first works through the worldly pleasures in relation to all six sense-objects, after which it takes up the pleasures of renunciation in relation to all six sense-objects.

The Chinese and Tibetan versions instead take up each sense-object from both perspectives, before turning to the next sense-object.

When examining the two types of equanimity, the Pāli version explains that worldly equanimity does not transcend sense-objects, while the equanimity of renunciation does transcend sense-objects.

The Chinese version formulates this in a slightly different manner, explaining that equanimity based on attachment is not separated from its object, whereas equanimity based on renunciation is the outcome of mental development.

The Tibetan version distinguishes between equanimity based on attachmement that has not given up its object and equanimity based on renunciation by having undertaken an analysis.

In spite of differing formulations, the three versions make the same point, since it is precisely through mental development and analysis that the transcendence of the sense-objects will be reached.

ANALAYO on MN 137/ MĀ 163
__________

Correct translation of paṭighasaññānaṃ in MN 59

5th "jhana" (1st formless attainment)

1. sabbaso rūpasaññānaṃ samatikkamā,
2. paṭighasaññānaṃ atthaṅgamā,
3. nānattasaññānaṃ amanasikārā
4. ‘ananto ākāso’ti
ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ upasampajja viharati.

1. with the complete overstepping of perceptions of/(aquiescence with) form (matter),
2. with the vanishing of perceptions (based) upon/(the aquiescence with) the organs of senses (viz. ajjhattikāni āyatanāni [including mano]),
3. not turning the mind (manasa/mano) towards perceptions of manifoldness (lit. (what is) differently than one),
4. aware that ‘space is (not bending and) infinite,’
he attains and seizes distinctively, the field of infinite space.
NOTE:
The Pāli, Chinese, and Sanskrit versions agree in correcting those who believe any of the jhānas or immaterial attainments to be the supreme experience of pleasant feeling and happiness, since in each case the next jhāna or immaterial attainment in the series is superior in happiness.

In all versions, the series culminates with the attainment of the cessation of perceptions and feelings, which the Buddha declared to be the supreme type of happiness, even though it takes place in the absence of feelings.
Analayo on MN 59/SA 485


____________

Upekka
upekṣ [ upa-√ īkṣ ] )
- to look on - ŚBr. & MBh.
- √ ईक्ष् īkṣ
- to watch over AV. AitBr. ŚBr.
- to see in one’s mind ŚBr. ChUp. MBh.

Also

sa aikṣatārikṣyaham
He thought within him
ŚBr. 3.9.1.2
sa aikṣata prajāpatiḥ
Pragâpati bethought himself
ŚBr. 10.4.2.21

----

cf. Vedic antarikṣa, and the three regions.

Upekka is not about equanimity; but more likely about looking upon dukkha arising & disappearing, with one's liberated citta - in other words, to "see" with the liberated citta, according to how sense-objects have come to be (yathābhūta).

_____________

An Eel-wriggler once answered that question:
"... anything else than these salayatana ayatanani (aka the All - (viz. the senses at large)), is just an impossibility.
With this answer:
"It's all that we can know".

Today, the same Eel-wriggler, tells us that jhana must be experienced without the senses, BUT mano ?!?!?!©.
Does that mean manovimutti?

I have already told the sophist, that "seeing" clearly with a liberated citta (cetovimutti), happens in the rupa loka => no more senses = > formless attainment (as seen above).

In other words, the first jhanas are concerned with the restraint over the object (kāma) [or objects (kāmā)] of desire, love or pleasure (1st jhana).
Kāma = 欲 (yù) = desire.

And the formless attainment are concerned with experiencing the higher āyatanāni without the senses (including mano).

---

To that, I will add nibbāna — "beyond breath" (nis vana).

First, nirodha [ ni-√ rudh] does not always mean cessation, but also means "restraint".

Secondly, here are the two breathes - namely high and low breath (not long and short — a subject already covered "grammatically").
https://i.ibb.co/LpfHSWv/Anapana.png

Two breathes = two nibbānas, so to speak (with and without remnant).

- In the first nibbāna (with remnant), one restains the breath.
- Well, in the second (without remnant), obviously one has it very very restrained, or no more breath at all (death).
.
.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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