MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

[DooDoot]

Do we have to consider this as "AB contradicted himself" ?

Yes. It shows AB is mistaken about Anapanasati, which is why his talks are obviously confusing some people.

It is important to know there are two levels of path fruition/concentration: (i) anapanasati; and (ii) jhana.

Both the commentaries & particularly individuals who have practised both levels attest to the two levels of concentration.

AB's descriptions of jhana are accurate & its probably best AB sticks to teaching about jhana.

For example, Ajahn Buddhadasa correctly taught:

In the practice of Anapanasati those very refined levels of concentration are not necessary. We only need to have a sufficient and appropriate level of concentration to continue with our practice, that is, enough samadhi that there are the feelings of piti and sukha (contentment and happiness). We need to use piti and sukha in the next steps of our study. If you can go on into jhana, into the material absorptions (rupa-jhana), that will be useful. It will make the next steps easier. Even if you do not reach jhana, as long as there is some piti and sukha you are doing fine.

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Bhik ... athing.htm

[Ceisiwr]

People will see what they want to see... I just see concentrated states... I don't see the word jhana or the accompanying similes.

Some people see what they want to see. Others change their mind, and so what they see, based on new information. This is the difference between someone who follows the Dhamma and someone who makes their own religion out of the Dhamma. Between someone who conforms to the Dhamma, or someone who makes the Dhamma conform to them. I'm not including you in either here, at the moment.

You 'know' you're right... I 'know' I'm right... it's an impasse.

It's not an impasse. The sutta passage in question is clearly referring to the Jhānā, only this time instead of by name it's by way of their distinguishing features and with what looks like an intermediate step between the 1st and 2nd Jhāna. This part of the passage is unusual, yes, but not unheard of. We see it again here:

savitakkasavicāro samādhi, avitakkavicāramatto samādhi, avitakkaavicāro samādhi.
Three kinds of immersion. Immersion with placing the mind and keeping it connected. Immersion without placing the mind, but just keeping it connected. Immersion without placing the mind or keeping it connected.

DN 33

iii–viii. Concentration
III … “And what, bhikkhus, is the path leading to the unconditioned? Concentration with thought and examination: this is called the path leading to the unconditioned….”

IV … “And what, bhikkhus, is the path leading to the unconditioned? Concentration without thought, with examination only….”

V … “And what, bhikkhus, is the path leading to the unconditioned? Concentration without thought and examination….”

VI … “And what, bhikkhus, is the path leading to the unconditioned? Emptiness concentration….”

VII … “And what, bhikkhus, is the path leading to the unconditioned? Signless concentration….”

VIII … “And what, bhikkhus, is the path leading to the unconditioned? Undirected concentration: this is called the path leading to the unconditioned….”

SN 43.12

"When this immersion is well developed and cultivated in this way, you should develop it while placing the mind and keeping it connected. You should develop it without placing the mind, but just keeping it connected. You should develop it without placing the mind or keeping it connected. You should develop it with rapture. You should develop it without rapture. You should develop it with pleasure. You should develop it with equanimity"

An 8.63

I believe it is also found in the northern parallels. Returning to our sutta then, the passage is clearly referring to the Jhānā. What precedes this passage is a discussion about the impediments to said attainments. Part of what holds one back is perceptions of diversity. Naturally this means that the opposite aids one in entering the Jhānā, namely to have 1 perception only. This means absorption into 1 perception, which is what the kasiṇa are all about. This sutta then strongly supports the argument that the Jhānā are states free of the 5 senses. When someone is approaching the Jhānā the mind becomes increasingly still. When in the Jhānā the mind is incredibly still. Attention to the 5 senses, let alone walking around, disturbs this.

Have you no thoughts on the original OP regarding the Anapanasati Sutta and how Ahahn Brahm presents it?

Not really no. I am only superficially aware of his meditation instructions. Though I do know he agrees with me and the commentaries regarding the Jhānā, I do not take any instruction from him myself.

Is training oneself impossible in the tetrads?

The commentaries and the Paṭisambhidāmagga, the Vimuttimagga and the Visuddhimagga take each "he trains" to be an instruction in training for the Higher Virtue, Higher Mind and Higher Wisdom. The Vimuttimagga and Visuddhimagga therefore have access concentration in mind for the first 3 stages, whilst in the 4th they have the development of all 4 Jhānā since in the 4th Jhānā the breath is completely tranquilised. The other stages are also done upon leaving different Jhānā as required. Alternatively Ven. Anālayo as "he trains" as referring to keeping the hindrances at bay, with the Jhānā occurring at stage 11 or 12 (my memory fails me here). I believe Ajahn Brahm takes a similar view.

[BrokenBones]

I can agree that some people make the Dhamma conform to themselves and look everywhere but the Suttas for that confirmation.

[Coëmgenu]

They even, gasp!, twist the suttas themselves. Sutta followers are not immune from vainglory.

Some people read suttas day in and day out and learn nothing for the simple reason that they can't learn anything. "Learning something" would involve admitting that there was an element of the Dharma one was not already familiar with. So many conventional Buddhists and sutta-followers alike are unable to admit to not knowing things generally. Buddhism for many is merely a device to prop up the ego.

[BrokenBones]

They even, gasp!, twist the suttas themselves. Sutta followers are not immune from vainglory.

Some people read suttas day in and day out and learn nothing for the simple reason that they can't learn anything. "Learning something" would involve admitting that there was an element of the Dharma one was not already familiar with. So many conventional Buddhists and sutta-followers alike are unable to admit to not knowing things generally. Buddhism for many is merely a device to prop up the ego.

... and some people reading the Suttas would rather call a spade a surgical tool rather than accept it for what it is... no grammatical gymnastics, no esoteric lights and certainly no disembodied state where you can get a good kicking without knowing it.

[DooDoot]

The Vimuttimagga and Visuddhimagga therefore have access concentration in mind for the first 3 stages, whilst in the 4th they have the development of all 4 Jhānā since in the 4th Jhānā the breath is completely tranquilised.

The above sounds wrong because the Anapanasati Sutta says the 4th stage is done with knowing of breathing. This cannot be jhana; particularly the 4th jhana. The Anapanasati Sutta says:

"[13] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on inconstancy.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on inconstancy.' [14] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on dispassion [literally, fading].' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on dispassion.' [15] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on cessation.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on cessation.' [16] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on relinquishment.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on relinquishment.'

... and some people reading the Suttas would rather call a spade a surgical tool rather than accept it for what it is... no grammatical gymnastics, no esoteric lights and certainly no disembodied state where you can get a good kicking without knowing it.

The suttas are silent on the jhana nimitta because it is a constituent of ekaggata thus not mentioned. I have explained this to you before but you keep repeating your same old gibberish it what appears to be an attempt to claim a discursive mind has attained jhana.

Jhana is a "disembodied", "heavenly" or "celestial state" unless the following sutta is referring to having diverse or multiple physical bodies and then no physical body in the four jhanas:

Mendicants, there are nine abodes of sentient beings. What nine?

There are sentient beings that are diverse in body and diverse in perception, such as human beings, some gods, and some beings in the underworld. This is the first abode of sentient beings.

There are sentient beings that are diverse in body and unified in perception, such as the gods reborn in Brahmā’s Host through the first absorption. This is the second abode of sentient beings.

There are sentient beings that are unified in body and diverse in perception, such as the gods of streaming radiance [2nd jhana]. This is the third abode of sentient beings.

There are sentient beings that are unified in body and unified in perception, such as the gods replete with glory [3rd jhana]. This is the fourth abode of sentient beings.

There are sentient beings that are non-percipient and do not experience anything [4th jhana] , such as the gods who are non-percipient beings. This is the fifth abode of sentient beings.

There are sentient beings that have gone totally beyond perceptions of form. With the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity, aware that ‘space is infinite’, they have been reborn in the dimension of infinite space. This is the sixth abode of sentient beings.

There are sentient beings that have gone totally beyond the dimension of infinite space. Aware that ‘consciousness is infinite’, they have been reborn in the dimension of infinite consciousness. This is the seventh abode of sentient beings.

There are sentient beings that have gone totally beyond the dimension of infinite consciousness. Aware that ‘there is nothing at all’, they have been reborn in the dimension of nothingness. This is the eighth abode of sentient beings.

There are sentient beings that have gone totally beyond the dimension of nothingness. They have been reborn in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. This is the ninth abode of sentient beings.

These are the nine abodes of sentient beings.”

It appears the sutta above is saying:

1. in the 1st jhana there is diversity in its 'body' ('collection'), namely, vitakka & vicara plus feelings

2. in the 2nd jhana there is unity in its 'body' ('collection'), namely, only pleasant feelings

3. in the 3rd jhana there is unity in its 'body' ('collection'), namely, only pleasant feelings

4. in the 4th jhana there is no 'body' ('collection'); because there is only equanimity

it appears clear in AN 9.24 above the word "kaya" does not mean "physical body" in relation to the jhanas.

In conclusion, it appears Ajahn Brahm is Brahm (supreme) and BrokenBones is "broken", similar to MN 35 below:

"Suppose a man — in need of heartwood, seeking heartwood, wandering in search of heartwood — were to enter a forest taking a sharp ax. There he would see a large plantain trunk: straight, young, immature. He would cut it at the root and, having cut it at the root, cut off the crown. Having cut off the crown, he would unfurl the leaf sheaths. Unfurling the leaf sheaths, he wouldn't even find sapwood there, to say nothing of heartwood. In the same way, Aggivessana, when you are interrogated, rebuked, & pressed by me with regard to your own statement, you are empty, void, mistaken. But it was you who made this statement before the assembly in Vesālī: 'I see no contemplative or brahman, the head of an order, the head of a group, or even one who claims to be an arahant, rightly self-awakened, who — engaged in debate with me — would not shiver, quiver, shake, & break out in sweat under the armpits. Even if I were to engage a senseless stump in debate, it — engaged with me in debate — would shiver, quiver, & shake, to say nothing of a human being.' But now some drops of sweat coming out of your forehead, drenching your upper robe, are landing on the ground, whereas now I have no sweat on my body." And the Blessed One uncovered his golden-colored body to the assembly. When this was said, Saccaka the Nigaṇṭha-son fell silent, abashed, sitting with his shoulders drooping, his head down, brooding, at a loss for words.

Then Dummukha [BadMouth] the Licchavi-son — sensing that Saccaka the Nigaṇṭha-son was silent, abashed, sitting with his shoulders drooping, his head down, brooding, at a loss for words — said to the Blessed One, "Lord, a simile has occurred to me."

"Let it occur to you, Dummukha," the Blessed One said.

"Suppose, lord, that not far from a village or town was a pond. There in it was a crab. Then a number of boys & girls, leaving the village or town, would go to the pond and, on arrival, would go down to bathe in it. Taking the crab out of the water, they would place it on the ground. And whenever the crab extended a leg, the boys or girls would cut it off, break it, and smash it with sticks or stones right there, so that the crab — with all its legs cut off, broken, & smashed — would be unable to get back in the water as before. In the same way, whatever Saccaka the Nigaṇṭha-son's writhings, capers & contortions, the Blessed One has cut them off, broken them, and smashed them all, so that Saccaka the Nigaṇṭha-son is now unable to approach the Blessed One again for the purpose of debate."

When this was said, Saccaka the Nigaṇṭha-son said to Dummukha the Licchavi-son, "Just you wait, Dummukha. Just you wait, Dummukha. You're a big-mouth, Dummukha. [6] We're not taking counsel with you. We're here taking counsel with Master Gotama." [Then, turning to the Buddha,] "Let that be, Master Gotama, our words & those of other ordinary contemplatives & brahmans — prattled prattling, as it were.

MN 35

[BrokenBones]

Dootdoot... if that's what you think the Sutta is saying then it's all yours... talk about grammar gymnastics.

And the suttas are silent about the jhana nimitta because... fanfare!!... they are not part of the four jhana teachings... it's not that hard to understand.

The gibberish my friend is all yours.

Nb visual or tactile nimittas may arise but don't cultivate them... ignore them unless you're after some sort of super powers e.g to be kicked in the head and not notice.

[DooDoot]

Dootdoot... if that's what you think the Sutta is saying then it's all yours... talk about grammar gymnastics.

the above is like saying A, B, C, D... X, Y, Z is "gymnastics"

you are clinging to a false dogmatic materialistic translation of the Pali "kaya"

And the suttas are silent about the jhana nimitta because... fanfare!!... they are not part of the four jhana teachings... it's not that hard to understand.

The impression is no refuge in the Sangha. When the Sangha say there is a nimitta in jhana, a puthujjana is in no position to refute this when the suttas are silent on the matter. I advised multiple times the explanation of the nimitta by those who describe it properly accords with the sutta jhana factor of "ekaggata". In short, the thought faculty of the mind becomes glued to the nimitta. This is ekaggata. A great diversity of meditation monks, from Buddhadasa to Brahmavamso, describe the "nimitta". They have nothing to gain by deceiving people about this if it did not exist. But the "jhana underestimators" have so much ego to lose. I suggest reading Trungpa's book: "Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism" (rather than wasting time reviling Ajahn Brahm).

[Pondera]

Dootdoot... if that's what you think the Sutta is saying then it's all yours... talk about grammar gymnastics.

And the suttas are silent about the jhana nimitta because... fanfare!!... they are not part of the four jhana teachings... it's not that hard to understand.

The gibberish my friend is all yours.

Nb visual or tactile nimittas may arise but don't cultivate them... ignore them unless you're after some sort of super powers e.g to be kicked in the head and not notice.

I’m on your side, Broken Bones.

Anyone who denies the importance of the body within the jhanas is ignoring the third jhana formula : “he senses pleasure with the body.”

He is also ignoring the other jhana formulations.

“There is no part of his body not pervaded by rapture and pleasure”.

He is also ignoring the Anapanasati formulations.

“He breathes in contemplating cessation. He breathes out contemplating cessation.”

To ignore the body in the framework of enlightenment is to go to great gymnastic heights to modify the teachings and the linguistic interpretations.

On your side all the way.

[Ceisiwr]

They even, gasp!, twist the suttas themselves. Sutta followers are not immune from vainglory.

Some people read suttas day in and day out and learn nothing for the simple reason that they can't learn anything. "Learning something" would involve admitting that there was an element of the Dharma one was not already familiar with. So many conventional Buddhists and sutta-followers alike are unable to admit to not knowing things generally. Buddhism for many is merely a device to prop up the ego.

[Ceisiwr]

I can agree that some people make the Dhamma conform to themselves and look everywhere but the Suttas for that confirmation.

Do you agree that:

A) The Jhanas are being referred to in this sutta.

B) Diverse perceptions hold one back from the Jhanas.

If no to either, on what basis?

[BrokenBones]

I can agree that some people make the Dhamma conform to themselves and look everywhere but the Suttas for that confirmation.

Do you agree that:

A) The Jhanas are being referred to in this sutta.

B) Diverse perceptions hold one back from the Jhanas.

If no to either, on what basis?

A) which Sutta and which particular part?

B) It depends on what your understanding of 'diverse perceptions' is. It doesn't have to be a single point that is perceived, like a bright light or dot that fills your awareness. This is tied in with some people's understanding of Ekaggata. Ekaggata is a unification of mind (and body) around one theme and a perception is not limited to single points of lights...e.g...

"Quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, the monk enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. His earlier perception of sensuality ceases, and on that occasion there is a perception of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion. On that occasion he is one who is percipient of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion. And thus it is that with training one perception arises and with training another perception ceases.

"Then, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, the monk enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. His earlier perception of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion ceases, and on that occasion there is a perception of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of concentration. On that occasion he is one who is percipient of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of concentration. And thus it is that with training one perception arises and with training another perception ceases."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

The above shows perceptions revolving around a unification of mind and body... rapture & pleasure... there are others, for example in MN111...


"Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

The other jhana similes show that the perception of body and mind converge... Ekaggata... if you will, for a unified experience.

"There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.

"Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal..."

Having said that, in Ajahn Brahms system, one could not follow the sutta instructions of...

"with training one perception arises and with training another perception ceases"

as one progresses through the jhanas in his sytstem, the 'will' has already disappeared on entering the first jhana.

[BrokenBones]

Dootdoot... if that's what you think the Sutta is saying then it's all yours... talk about grammar gymnastics.

And the suttas are silent about the jhana nimitta because... fanfare!!... they are not part of the four jhana teachings... it's not that hard to understand.

The gibberish my friend is all yours.

Nb visual or tactile nimittas may arise but don't cultivate them... ignore them unless you're after some sort of super powers e.g to be kicked in the head and not notice.

I’m on your side, Broken Bones.

Anyone who denies the importance of the body within the jhanas is ignoring the third jhana formula : “he senses pleasure with the body.”

He is also ignoring the other jhana formulations.

“There is no part of his body not pervaded by rapture and pleasure”.


He is also ignoring the Anapanasati formulations.

“He breathes in contemplating cessation. He breathes out contemplating cessation.”

To ignore the body in the framework of enlightenment is to go to great gymnastic heights to modify the teachings and the linguistic interpretations.

On your side all the way.

Thanks

It's heartening to know that others can think for themselves and look to the Suttas first and foremost.

[Pondera]

Dootdoot... if that's what you think the Sutta is saying then it's all yours... talk about grammar gymnastics.

And the suttas are silent about the jhana nimitta because... fanfare!!... they are not part of the four jhana teachings... it's not that hard to understand.

The gibberish my friend is all yours.

Nb visual or tactile nimittas may arise but don't cultivate them... ignore them unless you're after some sort of super powers e.g to be kicked in the head and not notice.

I’m on your side, Broken Bones.

Anyone who denies the importance of the body within the jhanas is ignoring the third jhana formula : “he senses pleasure with the body.”

He is also ignoring the other jhana formulations.

“There is no part of his body not pervaded by rapture and pleasure”.


He is also ignoring the Anapanasati formulations.

“He breathes in contemplating cessation. He breathes out contemplating cessation.”

To ignore the body in the framework of enlightenment is to go to great gymnastic heights to modify the teachings and the linguistic interpretations.

On your side all the way.

Thanks

It's heartening to know that others can think for themselves and look to the Suttas first and foremost.

[BrokenBones]

I hope that's Heineken 00