MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

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BrokenBones
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MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

Post by BrokenBones »

I'm a simple man who likes simple explanations. With all the furore over hard/soft/light/ambulance Jhana's I thought I'd spend my day off listening to the 'other side' and see if they can convince me as to my errors...

"[1] Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' [2] Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.' [3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.'[2] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.' [4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.'[3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

If we go by Hard Jhana interpretations then the 3rd and 4th instructions involve being mindful of ‘the body of breath’ and not the physical body at all.

Now some argue that there is somewhere in the Suttas where it states that the breath is 'a body among bodies', so lets apply that to the Anapanasati Sutta. If that interpretation is correct (I'm happy to accept that it is) then this Sutta would just be about 'the body' or 'a body among bodies', a 'breath body' if you will... but as Ajahn Brahm states in the video below, by the end of the first tetrad and beginning of the second tetrad the body is discarded and is replaced with bright lights and disembodiment and the breath has disappeared or is about to.

https://bswa.org/teaching/mn118-anapana ... breathing/

Brief synopsis...
32 minutes (end of first tetrad) breath starts to disappear – disembodied breath - lose awareness of what the breath is doing
37 minutes (start of second tetrad) breath gets beautiful
41 minutes forget the breath (second tetrad) – focus on rapture & pleasure
45 minutes start of third tetrad beautiful lights appear (only if you're doing it right)
This is experiencing the ‘mind’
48 minutes (third tetrad) brighten the nimitta stabilize it
Concentrate on the centre of the nimitta
52 minutes backtracks on what ‘trains oneself’ means
53 minutes last step in the third tetrad is First Jhana – people can kick you and you wouldn’t know it – body has disappeared
55 &103 minutes fourth tetrad – Jhana(s) gone – think back and reflect on them (doesn’t mention whether you're still breathing or not as per Sutta)
58 minutes (something about gender)
59 minutes your 'will' is taken away from you... as was mine... i didn't finish the rest.


The Awareness of the 'body of breath' Sutta descends rapidly into something involving bright lights and disembodiment... screw the breath and the body.

The breath as 'a body among bodies' doesn't mean we discard the body but merely means we work with the breath as it's felt within the body... a breath body.

If we go by Sutta Jhana interpretations then the 3rd and 4th instructions mean we are being mindful of the body (physical) with the aid of feeling the 'breath body' within.

I feel that this radical reinterpretation of the Anapanasati Sutta is tied into reinforcing the 'body doesn't mean body' shenanigans that are undertaken to prop up the Hard Jhana argument...

"Furthermore, quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again & again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within & without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

The above is taken from the Kayagata-sati Sutta: Mindfulness Immersed in the Body

The Four Frames of Reference
"And how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination?

"[1] On whatever occasion a monk breathing in long discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, discerns, 'I am breathing out long'; or breathing in short, discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, discerns, 'I am breathing out short'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&... out sensitive to the entire body'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out calming bodily fabrication': On that occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

"[2] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to rapture'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to pleasure'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to mental fabrication'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out calming mental fabrication': On that occasion the monk remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this — careful attention to in-&-out breaths — is classed as a feeling among feelings,[6] which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

"[3] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to the mind'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out satisfying the mind'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out steadying the mind'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out releasing the mind': On that occasion the monk remains focused on the mind in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I don't say that there is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing in one of lapsed mindfulness and no alertness, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the mind in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

"[4] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on inconstancy'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on dispassion'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on cessation'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on relinquishment': On that occasion the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He who sees with discernment the abandoning of greed & distress is one who watches carefully with equanimity, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

"This is how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination.


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html


The above is taken from the Anapanasati Sutta: Mindfulness of Breathing (a body amongst bodies); yet according to some interpretations the body disappears after the first tetrad... :rolleye:

Any thoughts?
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DooDoot
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Re: MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

Post by DooDoot »

BrokenBones wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:41 am I'm a simple man who likes simple explanations.
:popcorn:
BrokenBones wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:41 am the 'other side'
There is no other side of nothing.
BrokenBones wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:41 amIf we go by Hard Jhana interpretations then the 3rd and 4th instructions involve being mindful of ‘the body of breath’ and not the physical body at all.
There is no report of awareness of breath in jhana in the suttas therefore all of anapanasati appears unrelated to jhana.

3rd & 4th instructions include awareness of both breath & body because the breath is the kaya sankhara, i.e, that which conditions the body.

To experience the breathing as "kaya sankhara" means how the breath affects/conditions the physical body must be experienced. Therefore, both the breath body & the physical body must be experienced simultaneously.
BrokenBones wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:41 amNow some argue that there is somewhere in the Suttas where it states that the breath is 'a body among bodies'
the above is actually written in the anapanasati sutta if u took the time to read it
BrokenBones wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:41 am but as Ajahn Brahm states in the video below, by the end of the first tetrad and beginning of the second tetrad the body is discarded and is replaced with bright lights and disembodiment and the breath has disappeared or is about to.
Ajahn Brahm is obviously wrong because according to the sutta every step of Anapanasati is done with knowing of breathing. Ajahn Brahm does not understand Anapanasati, similar to a man born rich does not understand what it is like to be poor. obviously Ajahn Brahm went straight into jhana rather than ever practised the 16 stages of Anapanasati.
BrokenBones wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:41 am If we go by Sutta Jhana interpretations then the 3rd and 4th instructions mean we are being mindful of the body (physical) with the aid of feeling the 'breath body' within.
the 4th instruction is about kayasankhara, which the suttas (MN 44) define as the breath
BrokenBones wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:41 amI feel that this radical reinterpretation of the Anapanasati Sutta is tied into reinforcing the 'body doesn't mean body' shenanigans that are undertaken to prop up the Hard Jhana argument...
ftw?
BrokenBones wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:41 amFurthermore, quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again & again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within & without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body."
irrelevant. the "body" above is the "mental body" and not the physical body
BrokenBones wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:41 amThe above is taken from the Anapanasati Sutta: Mindfulness of Breathing (a body amongst bodies); yet according to some interpretations the body disappears after the first tetrad... Any thoughts?
the physical body does basically disappear after the 1st tetrad but the breath body does not disappear yet this physical body is not the "mental body" described in MN 119. As MN 118 says, the breath is a body among other bodies. There are other bodies apart from the breath body and the physical body. After the 1st tetrad, the breath body remains in the background while rapture body becomes the predominant meditation object. Yet this rapture body is not yet on the level of jhana rapture. This rapture body is known by and has an effect upon the mental body.

In summary, in steps 1 & 2, there is the breath body; in steps 3 and 4 there is the breath body, the physical body and the mental body; in steps 5 to 12, there is the breath body and the mental body; in step 13, there returns the breath body, the physical body and the mental body.
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Re: MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

Post by BrokenBones »

More 'irrelevant' nonsense... the body is the body when it is used in the mindfulness of body Sutta... if the Buddha was going to start talking about 'body of mind' you'd think he'd give us some sort of warning. It really isn't that hard to grasp.
chownah
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Re: MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

Post by chownah »

BrokenBones wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:41 am ........
.......
......
and yet more .......
........

The above is taken from the Anapanasati Sutta: Mindfulness of Breathing (a body amongst bodies); yet according to some interpretations the body disappears after the first tetrad... :rolleye:

Any thoughts?
I think I understand where you are coming from.....I think that you are wanting all of the sutta mentions of mindfulness like stuff to fit together into one big narrative where it all fits together perfectly and makes sense as a grand opus of mindfulness like stuff.

People try to do this all the time and frankly I don't think the suttas do anything to encourage this.....and frankly my impression is that the things people come up with are based more on their own fabricated narrative than it is based on strictly what is said in the suttas. I don't see the suttas lending much support that all of this stuff fits into one narrative and I think there is a reason why......that reason being that we all have different experience of the things making up the various sutta presentations and so we will gravitate to certain kinds of beliefs based on our different experiences (and the buddha was well aware of this) so there needed to be various kinds of explanations stressing various aspects of mindulness like stuff so that various people would find an entry point to the teachings which resonate with them.

I don't try to merge all that stuff into one ball of wax......I try to see what aspects are being stressed in each sutta and then try to see how this can fit into my practice and I have had pretty good success incorporating a wide variety of suttas WITHOUT trying to make it all fit together into one narrative.....if the buddha had wanted there to be one big narrative then he did a really terrible job of expressing that and did nothing to bring that directly to our attention......

Don't make the mistake of discounting other people's views on this stuff just because it does not resonate with you and always remember that your views on this stuff does not resonate with them and that we all need something which resonates with our own individual experiences as an entry point into the teachings. I think that for people to think that there is only one true narrative which explains all that the buddha taught are actually describing a situation where there is only one path which is probably a big mistake.
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Rahula
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Re: MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

Post by Rahula »

Thank you all for providing such wisdom.
I had listened to Ajahn Brahm talks but never new this kind of information. I thought he was 100% accurate. But now, not so sure.

How come someone like Ajahn Brahm get it all wrong after so many years of practice?
Is Ajahn Chahs teaching similar?
May you be happy, healthy & successful in everything you do! :anjali:
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mjaviem
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Re: MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

Post by mjaviem »

Rahula wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:41 pm ...
Is Ajahn Chahs teaching similar?
Q: What about other methods of practice? These days there seem to be so many teachers and so many different systems of meditation that it is confusing.
Ajahn Chah wrote: A: It is like going into town. One can approach from the north, from the south-east, from many roads. Often these systems just differ outwardly. Whether you walk one way or another, fast or slow, if you are mindful, it is all the same. There is one essential point that all good practice must eventually come to - not clinging. In the end, all meditation systems must be let go of. Neither can one cling to the teacher. If a system leads to relinquishment, to not clinging, then it is correct practice.
...
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Re: MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

Post by BrokenBones »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:46 am
BrokenBones wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:41 am the 'other side'
There is no other side of nothing.
BrokenBones wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:41 amIf we go by Hard Jhana interpretations then the 3rd and 4th instructions involve being mindful of ‘the body of breath’ and not the physical body at all.
There is no report of awareness of breath in jhana in the suttas therefore all of anapanasati appears unrelated to jhana.

3rd & 4th instructions include awareness of both breath & body because the breath is the kaya sankhara, i.e, that which conditions the body.

To experience the breathing as "kaya sankhara" means how the breath affects/conditions the physical body must be experienced. Therefore, both the breath body & the physical body must be experienced simultaneously.
BrokenBones wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:41 amNow some argue that there is somewhere in the Suttas where it states that the breath is 'a body among bodies'
the above is actually written in the anapanasati sutta if u took the time to read it
BrokenBones wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:41 amI feel that this radical reinterpretation of the Anapanasati Sutta is tied into reinforcing the 'body doesn't mean body' shenanigans that are undertaken to prop up the Hard Jhana argument...
ftw?


BrokenBones wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:41 amThe above is taken from the Anapanasati Sutta: Mindfulness of Breathing (a body amongst bodies); yet according to some interpretations the body disappears after the first tetrad... Any thoughts?
the physical body does basically disappear after the 1st tetrad but the breath body does not disappear yet this physical body is not the "mental body" described in MN 119. As MN 118 says, the breath is a body among other bodies. There are other bodies apart from the breath body and the physical body. After the 1st tetrad, the breath body remains in the background while rapture body becomes the predominant meditation object. Yet this rapture body is not yet on the level of jhana rapture. This rapture body is known by and has an effect upon the mental body.

In summary, in steps 1 & 2, there is the breath body; in steps 3 and 4 there is the breath body, the physical body and the mental body; in steps 5 to 12, there is the breath body and the mental body; in step 13, there returns the breath body, the physical body and the mental body.
Don't presume I didn't read it... the point I was making was that people interpret 'the breath body' as not connecting to the physical body... as you seem to be saying in your reply... and then not saying... you seemed to get confused :shrug: the breath body is merely one way of perceiving the physical body.

There are many bodies... skeleton body, lymphatic system body, breath body, skin body, bliss body etc.
And they are all connected and felt within the physical body.

As for there being no report of breathing in Jhana... there is report of body in Jhana and isn't the breath body a body among bodies?
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Re: MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

Post by BrokenBones »

Hi Chownah

I largely disagree with you.

The Dhamma has 'one taste'

The Suttas have 'one taste' (for the most part ;) )

I take the Suttas at face value... no need for grammatical gymnastics and esoteric lights

I'm not a believer in the... 'it's all good' sentiment that pervades a lot of mainstream Buddhism... call me a fundamentalist if you like but the Buddha was pretty rigid in declaring what was Dhamma and what wasn't.

Now obviously that comes down to personal interpretation and I or you could be wrong, but I would never subscribe to the 'different narrative's' school of thought.

One narrative... one Dhamma... admittedly a multitude of approaches and 'levels' but that has unfortunately led to past and modern day teachers using approaches that cling to a different narrative than what is found in the Suttas.

As you rightly say it comes down to our personal experience and how we interpret the Suttas or who we 'elect' to interpret them for us...

Like I said... I'm a simple man and the simplest reading will have to do for me. :smile:
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Rahula
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Re: MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

Post by Rahula »

mjaviem wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:04 pm
Rahula wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:41 pm ...
Is Ajahn Chahs teaching similar?
Q: What about other methods of practice? These days there seem to be so many teachers and so many different systems of meditation that it is confusing.
Ajahn Chah wrote: A: It is like going into town. One can approach from the north, from the south-east, from many roads. Often these systems just differ outwardly. Whether you walk one way or another, fast or slow, if you are mindful, it is all the same. There is one essential point that all good practice must eventually come to - not clinging. In the end, all meditation systems must be let go of. Neither can one cling to the teacher. If a system leads to relinquishment, to not clinging, then it is correct practice.
...
:anjali:
Thanks
May you be happy, healthy & successful in everything you do! :anjali:
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Re: MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

Post by DooDoot »

BrokenBones wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:30 am ....
It was already posted: "There is no other side of nothing".
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:30 amyou seemed to get confused
One with nothing knowing of dhamma is confused.
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:30 amthe breath body is merely one way of perceiving the physical body.
Nonsense. The physical body is something afflicted by mental stress. For example, constant mental stress can give rise to physical disease, such as cancer. It is not the breath that is sick with cancer. You seemed to get confused.
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:30 amAs for there being no report of breathing in Jhana... there is report of body in Jhana
The "body" in jhana is the "mental body". You seemed to get confused
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:30 amand isn't the breath body a body among bodies?
Yes. But the breath is not always perceptible. For example, SN 36.11 says the breath is stilled in jhana.
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:58 am The Dhamma has 'one taste'
Yes. But not the 'taste' or 'freedom' you believe. You seemed to get confused.
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:58 amI take the Suttas at face value... no need for grammatical gymnastics and esoteric lights
Obviously you don't even understand the sutta; let alone understand Pali. The statement: "I take the Suttas at face value" appears to be a groundless nothing sort of a statement.
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:58 amOne narrative... one Dhamma.
It appears the above view is influenced by Mono-Theism. Anapanasati has 16 salient experiences. It is not "One Narrative; One Dhamma; One God" etc. If Anapanasati was "One Dhamma", it would teach one step. Please try to be logical.

In summary, there is no mention of white lights in the Anapanasati or in any other sutta. The Buddha never mentioned the "white light" in jhana. Instead, the Buddha referred to "ekaggata", which covers the white light phenomena. The white light only occurs when there is "ekaggata". :smile:
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Re: MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi BrokenBones,

Though not mentioned in the Anapanasati sutta, there are some suttas that talk about lights, such as this one where the Buddha recalls the problems he had with his meditation
“Well, sir, while meditating diligent, keen, and resolute, we perceive both light and vision of forms. But before long the light and the vision of forms vanish. We haven’t worked out the reason for that.”

“Well, you should work out the reason for that. Before my awakening—when I was still unawakened but intent on awakening—I too perceived both light and vision of forms. But before long my light and vision of forms vanished. It occurred to me: ‘What’s the cause, what’s the reason why my light and vision of forms vanish?’ It occurred to me: ‘Doubt arose in me, and because of that my immersion fell away. When immersion falls away, the light and vision of forms vanish. I’ll make sure that doubt will not arise in me again.’
...

MN128 https://suttacentral.net/mn128
:heart:
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Re: MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

Post by chownah »

BrokenBones wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:58 am Hi Chownah

I largely disagree with you.

The Dhamma has 'one taste'

The Suttas have 'one taste' (for the most part ;) )

I take the Suttas at face value... no need for grammatical gymnastics and esoteric lights

I'm not a believer in the... 'it's all good' sentiment that pervades a lot of mainstream Buddhism... call me a fundamentalist if you like but the Buddha was pretty rigid in declaring what was Dhamma and what wasn't.

Now obviously that comes down to personal interpretation and I or you could be wrong, but I would never subscribe to the 'different narrative's' school of thought.

One narrative... one Dhamma... admittedly a multitude of approaches and 'levels' but that has unfortunately led to past and modern day teachers using approaches that cling to a different narrative than what is found in the Suttas.

As you rightly say it comes down to our personal experience and how we interpret the Suttas or who we 'elect' to interpret them for us...

Like I said... I'm a simple man and the simplest reading will have to do for me. :smile:
Indeed "And furthermore, just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma & Vinaya has a single taste: that of release... "......just as many fruits have the taste of sweetness it can be seen that sweetness can be had with just one of the many sweeet fruits.

Also note that in the same sutta (https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html) it also says "And furthermore, just as the ocean has these many treasures of various kinds — pearls, sapphires, lapis lazuli, shells, quartz, coral, silver, gold, rubies, & cat's eyes — in the same way, this Dhamma & Vinaya has these many treasures of various kinds: the four establishings of mindfulness, the four right exertions, the four bases of power, the five faculties, the five strengths, the seven factors for awakening, the noble eightfold path..."........to me it seems like this is saying that each of these is a treasure in its own right and it does not even hint at a need to make them all fit together into one narrative.....they each and every single one have the taste of release.....

Also, I never even hinted at the idea that "it's all good' sentiment that pervades a lot of mainstream Buddhism" and clearly all thoughts about buddhism are not "good" ones......what I did say I think is quite in line with your fundamentalism in that I was saying that the fundamentals are the treasures of the dhamma (as listed above) but there is no need to try to combine these fundamentals into a one size fits all narrative....not all teachings fit all people which is evidenced when you say "it comes down to our personal experience and how we interpret the Suttas"......and clearly this is something we both agree on.

chownah
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Re: MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

Post by BrokenBones »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:47 am
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:30 am ....
It was already posted: "There is no other side of nothing".
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:30 amyou seemed to get confused
One with nothing knowing of dhamma is confused.
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:30 amthe breath body is merely one way of perceiving the physical body.
Nonsense. The physical body is something afflicted by mental stress. For example, constant mental stress can give rise to physical disease, such as cancer. It is not the breath that is sick with cancer. You seemed to get confused.
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:30 amAs for there being no report of breathing in Jhana... there is report of body in Jhana
The "body" in jhana is the "mental body". You seemed to get confused
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:30 amand isn't the breath body a body among bodies?
It was already posted: "There is no other side of nothing". You seemed to get confused.
And there we have it...

'The Body of Mind' :roll: … if it wasn't so important it would be funny.

Your example lacks depth and a certain relevancy... cannot the breath be stressed? subject to dis-ease. Isn't the mind subject to disease (hindrances)? Are you saying all physical disease is 'mind' created? .. why is this even relevant? It sounds so confused.

Mind and breath body (which is the physical body perceived by means of the breath) work together.

Calm the breath and it calms the mind... it's still a breath body; perceived by the mind (how else would we perceive what it is)… the body and mind are connected you know and no amount of obfuscation can change the fact that the Buddha's Jhana's are bodily Jhanas.

There are other types of Jhanas or 'concentrations' from which certain benefits can be accrued (maybe for the next life) but they are certainly not what the Buddha is describing...

"There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.

"Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal...


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... jhana.html

Even the instructions of... 'He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.'

are impossible in Ajahn Brahm's system since his 'will' has already disappeared so there is no way the meditator is capable of doing anything; the meditator has to just watch the light show until they're released from its grasp.

Ajahn Brahm papers over the 'He trains himself' instructions found throughout the Anapanasati Sutta by declaring that this is a determination you make at the start of meditating as you can't 'train' yourself because your 'will' has been taken away. :rolleye:

So there is in fact no 'training' to be done in the Anapanasati Sutta... just make a quick determination and Bobs your uncle... The Buddha could have mentioned it :smile:
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DooDoot
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Re: MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

Post by DooDoot »

BrokenBones wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:51 am And there we have it...

'The Body of Mind' :roll: … if it wasn't so important it would be funny.
How many times must it be repeated the word "kaya" does not necessarily mean "physical body" and can refer to the "mental body" ("namakaya") or even the "five aggregates". The word "kaya" means "group" or "collection", such as in the English term "body of evidence".
Namakaya, Nāmakāya, Nama-kaya:

Namakaya means something in Buddhism,

Source: Pali Kanon: Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines

the 'mind-group' (as distinguished from rūpa-kāya, the corporeality-group) comprises the 4 immaterial groups of existence (arūpino khandhā; s. khandha).

https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/namakaya
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:51 amAjahn Brahm papers over the 'He trains himself' instructions found throughout the Anapanasati Sutta by declaring that this is a determination you make at the start of meditating as you can't 'train' yourself because your 'will' has been taken away.
You should quote the above rather than post unsubstantiated remarks that could be viewed as conjecture. Regardless, it is unrelated to anything i posted.
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:51 amSo there is in fact no 'training' to be done in the Anapanasati Sutta... just make a quick determination and Bobs your uncle... The Buddha could have mentioned it
The suttas (eg. SN 54.11) that refer to the Buddha himself practicing Anapanasati don't use the phrase "He trains himself" because the Buddha has finished "training". Again, you are posting more nonsense. The main "training" in Buddhism is abandoning craving. You appear to be preaching practising Anapanasati or doing "training" with craving. It sounds like Ajahn Brahm taught "training" includes "giving up craving". It sounds like Ajahn Brahm is right and you are wrong, in respect to Training. The Buddha himself, similar to Ajahn Brahm, taught:
There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind.

SN 48.10
Worse, you take things you learn from me, such as "He trains oneself" and then you revile me. You should train to train in the training basics such as training in showing reverence towards your training teachers. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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BrokenBones
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Re: MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

Post by BrokenBones »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:59 am
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:51 am And there we have it...

'The Body of Mind' :roll: … if it wasn't so important it would be funny.
I suggested some folks know basically "nothing" about dhamma. How many times must it be repeated the "kaya" does not necessarily mean "physical body" and can refer to the "mental body" ("namakaya") or even the "five aggregates". The word "kaya" means "group" or "collection", such as in the English term "body of evidence".
Namakaya, Nāmakāya, Nama-kaya:

Namakaya means something in Buddhism,

Source: Pali Kanon: Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines

the 'mind-group' (as distinguished from rūpa-kāya, the corporeality-group) comprises the 4 immaterial groups of existence (arūpino khandhā; s. khandha).

https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/namakaya
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:51 amAjahn Brahm papers over the 'He trains himself' instructions found throughout the Anapanasati Sutta by declaring that this is a determination you make at the start of meditating as you can't 'train' yourself because your 'will' has been taken away.
You should quote the above rather than post unsubstantiated remarks that could be viewed as conjecture. Regardless, it is unrelated to anything i posted.
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:51 amSo there is in fact no 'training' to be done in the Anapanasati Sutta... just make a quick determination and Bobs your uncle... The Buddha could have mentioned it
The suttas (eg. SN 54.11) that refer to the Buddha himself practicing Anapanasati don't use the phrase "He trains himself" because the Buddha has finished "training". Again, you are posting more nonsense.

Worse, you take things you learn from me, such as "He trains oneself" and then you revile me. You should learn to practise the basics of showing reverence towards your teachers.
I suggest some folk overestimate their knowledge of Dhamma and make scurrilous aspersions... isn't making suggestions fun!

Kaya can be used in other senses but when the Buddha is using the word Kaya in relation to the physical body I tend to believe that he's using the word Kaya in the sense of a physical body or at least give us a clue he's about to change its usage mid-flow. The similes are all bodily related in order that later people don't misunderstand that he's talking about the physical body and not something idiotic like 'the body of mind' which has no relation to the similes or teaching in question.

If you'd be a bit more observant, you would have noticed I gave a timeline of the video to make it easier to check on my 'unsubstantiated remarks'.

The Buddha needn't train but most others do... I don't see your point... is there one?

What on earth are you on about? What have I ever learned from you? (besides working on one of my hindrances... can you guess which one?)

Reviled you :roll: How have I conversed with you any differently to how you converse with me?... you're so funny... my teacher indeed... the ego has landed.
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