Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:46 pm
The Vimuttimagga and Visuddhimagga therefore have access concentration in mind for the first 3 stages, whilst in the 4th they have the development of all 4 Jhānā since in the 4th Jhānā the breath is completely tranquilised.
The above sounds wrong because the Anapanasati Sutta says the 4th stage is done with knowing of breathing. This cannot be jhana; particularly the 4th jhana. The Anapanasati Sutta says:
MN 118 wrote:"[13] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on inconstancy.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on inconstancy.' [14] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on dispassion [literally, fading].' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on dispassion.' [15] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on cessation.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on cessation.' [16] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on relinquishment.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on relinquishment.'
BrokenBones wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:33 am
... and some people reading the Suttas would rather call a spade a surgical tool rather than accept it for what it is... no grammatical gymnastics, no esoteric lights and certainly no disembodied state where you can get a good kicking without knowing it.
The suttas are silent on the jhana nimitta because it is a constituent of ekaggata thus not mentioned. I have explained this to you before but you keep repeating your same old gibberish it what appears to be an attempt to claim a discursive mind has attained jhana.
Jhana is a "disembodied", "heavenly" or "celestial state" unless the following sutta is referring to having diverse or multiple physical bodies and then no physical body in the four jhanas:
AN 9.24 wrote:Mendicants, there are nine abodes of sentient beings. What nine?
There are sentient beings that are diverse in body and diverse in perception, such as human beings, some gods, and some beings in the underworld. This is the first abode of sentient beings.
There are sentient beings that are
diverse in body and unified in perception, such as the gods reborn in Brahmā’s Host through
the first absorption. This is the second abode of sentient beings.
There are sentient beings that are
unified in body and diverse in perception, such as the gods of streaming radiance [
2nd jhana]. This is the third abode of sentient beings.
There are sentient beings that are
unified in body and unified in perception, such as the gods replete with glory [
3rd jhana]. This is the fourth abode of sentient beings.
There are sentient beings that are
non-percipient and do not experience anything [4th jhana] , such as the gods who are non-percipient beings. This is the fifth abode of sentient beings.
There are sentient beings that have gone totally beyond perceptions of form. With the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity, aware that ‘space is infinite’, they have been reborn in the dimension of infinite space. This is the sixth abode of sentient beings.
There are sentient beings that have gone totally beyond the dimension of infinite space. Aware that ‘consciousness is infinite’, they have been reborn in the dimension of infinite consciousness. This is the seventh abode of sentient beings.
There are sentient beings that have gone totally beyond the dimension of infinite consciousness. Aware that ‘there is nothing at all’, they have been reborn in the dimension of nothingness. This is the eighth abode of sentient beings.
There are sentient beings that have gone totally beyond the dimension of nothingness. They have been reborn in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. This is the ninth abode of sentient beings.
These are the nine abodes of sentient beings.”
It appears the sutta above is saying:
1. in the 1st jhana there is diversity in its 'body' ('collection'), namely, vitakka & vicara plus feelings
2. in the 2nd jhana there is unity in its 'body' ('collection'), namely, only pleasant feelings
3. in the 3rd jhana there is unity in its 'body' ('collection'), namely, only pleasant feelings
4. in the 4th jhana there is no 'body' ('collection'); because there is only equanimity
it appears clear in AN 9.24 above the word "kaya" does not mean "physical body" in relation to the jhanas.
In conclusion, it appears Ajahn Brahm is Brahm (supreme) and BrokenBones is "broken", similar to MN 35 below:
"Suppose a man — in need of heartwood, seeking heartwood, wandering in search of heartwood — were to enter a forest taking a sharp ax. There he would see a large plantain trunk: straight, young, immature. He would cut it at the root and, having cut it at the root, cut off the crown. Having cut off the crown, he would unfurl the leaf sheaths. Unfurling the leaf sheaths, he wouldn't even find sapwood there, to say nothing of heartwood. In the same way, Aggivessana, when you are interrogated, rebuked, & pressed by me with regard to your own statement, you are empty, void, mistaken. But it was you who made this statement before the assembly in Vesālī: 'I see no contemplative or brahman, the head of an order, the head of a group, or even one who claims to be an arahant, rightly self-awakened, who — engaged in debate with me — would not shiver, quiver, shake, & break out in sweat under the armpits. Even if I were to engage a senseless stump in debate, it — engaged with me in debate — would shiver, quiver, & shake, to say nothing of a human being.' But now some drops of sweat coming out of your forehead, drenching your upper robe, are landing on the ground, whereas now I have no sweat on my body." And the Blessed One uncovered his golden-colored body to the assembly. When this was said, Saccaka the Nigaṇṭha-son fell silent, abashed, sitting with his shoulders drooping, his head down, brooding, at a loss for words.
Then Dummukha [BadMouth] the Licchavi-son — sensing that Saccaka the Nigaṇṭha-son was silent, abashed, sitting with his shoulders drooping, his head down, brooding, at a loss for words — said to the Blessed One, "Lord, a simile has occurred to me."
"Let it occur to you, Dummukha," the Blessed One said.
"Suppose, lord, that not far from a village or town was a pond. There in it was a crab. Then a number of boys & girls, leaving the village or town, would go to the pond and, on arrival, would go down to bathe in it. Taking the crab out of the water, they would place it on the ground. And whenever the crab extended a leg, the boys or girls would cut it off, break it, and smash it with sticks or stones right there, so that the crab — with all its legs cut off, broken, & smashed — would be unable to get back in the water as before. In the same way, whatever Saccaka the Nigaṇṭha-son's writhings, capers & contortions, the Blessed One has cut them off, broken them, and smashed them all, so that Saccaka the Nigaṇṭha-son is now unable to approach the Blessed One again for the purpose of debate."
When this was said, Saccaka the Nigaṇṭha-son said to Dummukha the Licchavi-son, "Just you wait, Dummukha. Just you wait, Dummukha. You're a big-mouth, Dummukha. [6] We're not taking counsel with you. We're here taking counsel with Master Gotama." [Then, turning to the Buddha,] "Let that be, Master Gotama, our words & those of other ordinary contemplatives & brahmans — prattled prattling, as it were.
MN 35