MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

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DooDoot
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Re: MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

Post by DooDoot »

BrokenBones wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:44 am I suggest some folk overestimate their knowledge of Dhamma and make scurrilous aspersions... isn't making suggestions fun!
Yes, yourself.
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:44 amKaya can be used in other senses
You appear merely repeating what I taught you.
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:44 ambut when the Buddha is using the word Kaya in relation to the physical body I tend to believe that he's using the word Kaya in the sense of a physical body or at least give us a clue he's about to change its usage mid-flow.
Your belief is not necessary true or real. Instead, it appears to accord with your mind's defilements that prevent your mind attaining real jhana. There is no awareness of the physical body in real jhana. Therefore, one that has never attained real jhana can never refute one that has. Your attempts are futile and chuckle-able.
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:44 am The similes are all bodily related in order that later people don't misunderstand that he's talking about the physical body and not something idiotic like 'the body of mind' which has no relation to the similes or teaching in question.
The above is unsubstantiated personal opinion.
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:44 amIf you'd be a bit more observant, you would have noticed I gave a timeline of the video to make it easier to check on my 'unsubstantiated remarks'.
I already refuted your remark.

Ajahn Brahm was correct when he said at 52 minutes "the mind liberates itself at step 12". However, once & after this occurs, the meditator has the volitional capacity to liberate the mind in the same way, even though the original liberating of mind occurred by itself, without any volition. This is why it is "training". The Dhamma itself has trained the meditator to do something they previously could not do.

As for what he is saying about jhana, it is nonsense. Anapanasati is not about jhana.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Rahula
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Re: MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

Post by Rahula »

:anjali:
This was helpful, thanks
mikenz66 wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:31 am Hi BrokenBones,

Though not mentioned in the Anapanasati sutta, there are some suttas that talk about lights, such as this one where the Buddha recalls the problems he had with his meditation
“Well, sir, while meditating diligent, keen, and resolute, we perceive both light and vision of forms. But before long the light and the vision of forms vanish. We haven’t worked out the reason for that.”

“Well, you should work out the reason for that. Before my awakening—when I was still unawakened but intent on awakening—I too perceived both light and vision of forms. But before long my light and vision of forms vanished. It occurred to me: ‘What’s the cause, what’s the reason why my light and vision of forms vanish?’ It occurred to me: ‘Doubt arose in me, and because of that my immersion fell away. When immersion falls away, the light and vision of forms vanish. I’ll make sure that doubt will not arise in me again.’
...

MN128 https://suttacentral.net/mn128
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Mike
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Rahula
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Re: MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

Post by Rahula »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:14 am As for what he is saying about jhana, it is nonsense. Anapanasati is not about jhana.
It seems you both agree on one thing.
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Re: MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

Post by BrokenBones »

mikenz66 wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:31 am Hi BrokenBones,

Though not mentioned in the Anapanasati sutta, there are some suttas that talk about lights, such as this one where the Buddha recalls the problems he had with his meditation
“Well, sir, while meditating diligent, keen, and resolute, we perceive both light and vision of forms. But before long the light and the vision of forms vanish. We haven’t worked out the reason for that.”

“Well, you should work out the reason for that. Before my awakening—when I was still unawakened but intent on awakening—I too perceived both light and vision of forms. But before long my light and vision of forms vanished. It occurred to me: ‘What’s the cause, what’s the reason why my light and vision of forms vanish?’ It occurred to me: ‘Doubt arose in me, and because of that my immersion fell away. When immersion falls away, the light and vision of forms vanish. I’ll make sure that doubt will not arise in me again.’
...

MN128 https://suttacentral.net/mn128
:heart:
Mike
Yes, there is at least one sutta that talks about lights... but the context is not clear and jhana is not mentioned.

Pursuit of psychic powers is the most probable meditation being discussed. I cannot recall lights and vision of forms ever being mentioned within the context of the four jhanas; neither in the instructions or the similes. Lights & vision of forms seem to be mentioned infrequently and in relation to the attainment of the divine eye beyond the fourth jhana.
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Re: MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:17 pm
mikenz66 wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:31 am Hi BrokenBones,

Though not mentioned in the Anapanasati sutta, there are some suttas that talk about lights, such as this one where the Buddha recalls the problems he had with his meditation
“Well, sir, while meditating diligent, keen, and resolute, we perceive both light and vision of forms. But before long the light and the vision of forms vanish. We haven’t worked out the reason for that.”

“Well, you should work out the reason for that. Before my awakening—when I was still unawakened but intent on awakening—I too perceived both light and vision of forms. But before long my light and vision of forms vanished. It occurred to me: ‘What’s the cause, what’s the reason why my light and vision of forms vanish?’ It occurred to me: ‘Doubt arose in me, and because of that my immersion fell away. When immersion falls away, the light and vision of forms vanish. I’ll make sure that doubt will not arise in me again.’
...

MN128 https://suttacentral.net/mn128
:heart:
Mike
Yes, there is at least one sutta that talks about lights... but the context is not clear and jhana is not mentioned.

Pursuit of psychic powers is the most probable meditation being discussed. I cannot recall lights and vision of forms ever being mentioned within the context of the four jhanas; neither in the instructions or the similes. Lights & vision of forms seem to be mentioned infrequently and in relation to the attainment of the divine eye beyond the fourth jhana.
Jhana is mentioned. The section Mike quoted is what happens before Jhana. Read the whole sutta.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

Post by mikenz66 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:50 pm Jhana is mentioned. The section Mike quoted is what happens before Jhana. Read the whole sutta.
Thanks. And clearly the paragraph I quoted is about development of samādhi:
‘What’s the cause, what’s the reason why my light and vision of forms vanish?’
‘ko nu kho hetu ko paccayo yena me obhāso antaradhāyati dassanañca rūpānan’ti?
It occurred to me:
Tassa mayhaṁ, anuruddhā, etadahosi:
It occurred to me: ‘Doubt arose in me, and because of that my immersion fell away.
‘vicikicchā kho me udapādi, vicikicchādhikaraṇañca pana me samādhi cavi.
https://suttacentral.net/mn128/en/sujato
It's only later text that use the term nimtta for these experiences:
Visuddhimagga, Chapter IV wrote: 31. As he does so, the hindrances eventually become suppressed, the
defilements subside, the mind becomes concentrated with access concentration,
and the counterpart sign (patibhaganimitta) arises.
...
Visuddhimagga, Chapter VIII wrote: 214. When he does so in this way, the sign soon appears to him. But it is not
the same for all; on the contrary, some say that when it appears it does so to
certain people producing a light touch like cotton or silk-cotton or a draught.
215. But this is the exposition given in the commentaries: It appears to some
like a star or a cluster of gems or a cluster of pearls, to others with a rough touch
like that of silk-cotton seeds or a peg made of heartwood, to others like a long
braid string or a wreath of flowers or a puff of smoke, to others like a stretched-
out cobweb or a film of cloud or a lotus flower or a chariot wheel or the moon’s
disk or the sun’s disk.
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Re: MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:50 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:17 pm
mikenz66 wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:31 am Hi BrokenBones,

Though not mentioned in the Anapanasati sutta, there are some suttas that talk about lights, such as this one where the Buddha recalls the problems he had with his meditation

:heart:
Mike
Yes, there is at least one sutta that talks about lights... but the context is not clear and jhana is not mentioned.

Pursuit of psychic powers is the most probable meditation being discussed. I cannot recall lights and vision of forms ever being mentioned within the context of the four jhanas; neither in the instructions or the similes. Lights & vision of forms seem to be mentioned infrequently and in relation to the attainment of the divine eye beyond the fourth jhana.
Jhana is mentioned. The section Mike quoted is what happens before Jhana. Read the whole sutta.
It's certainly about concentration exercises but I cannot see jhana or it's accompanying similes mentioned.

As for its description of the 'unmentioned' jhanas, it's strange that the sutta breaks it down into five stages rather than the four that the Buddha repeatedly taught.

Rapture and bliss are also part of the concentration states and nothing in the sutta states that the Buddha is discussing jhana.
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Re: MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:37 pm
It's certainly about concentration exercises but I cannot see jhana or it's accompanying similes mentioned.
If you read the whole sutta you will see a progression to the Jhanas.
Rapture and bliss are also part of the concentration states and nothing in the sutta states that the Buddha is discussing jhana.
These are the Jhana:
When I understood that doubt, loss of focus, dullness and drowsiness, terror, excitement, discomfort, excessive energy, overly lax energy, longing, perception of diversity, and excessive concentration on forms are corruptions of the mind, I gave them up.
I thought: ‘I’ve given up my mental corruptions. Now let me develop immersion in three ways.’ I developed immersion while placing the mind and keeping it connected; without placing the mind, but just keeping it connected; without placing the mind or keeping it connected; with rapture; without rapture; with pleasure; with equanimity.
Also notice that this:

“perception of diversity”

Is part of what needs to be overcome, along with the hindrances. Quite hard to do if someone is stuck just being mindful of the physical body, let alone walking around the place. Very compatible with absorption though, with Kasinas.

“One person perceives the wind kasiṇa above, below, across, non-dual and measureless.”

Take wind here to be the breath, if someone has reached Jhana via mindfulness of breathing.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:54 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:37 pm
It's certainly about concentration exercises but I cannot see jhana or it's accompanying similes mentioned.
If you read the whole sutta you will see a progression to the Jhanas.
Rapture and bliss are also part of the concentration states and nothing in the sutta states that the Buddha is discussing jhana.
These are the Jhana:
When I understood that doubt, loss of focus, dullness and drowsiness, terror, excitement, discomfort, excessive energy, overly lax energy, longing, perception of diversity, and excessive concentration on forms are corruptions of the mind, I gave them up.
I thought: ‘I’ve given up my mental corruptions. Now let me develop immersion in three ways.’ I developed immersion while placing the mind and keeping it connected; without placing the mind, but just keeping it connected; without placing the mind or keeping it connected; with rapture; without rapture; with pleasure; with equanimity.
Also notice that this:

“perception of diversity”

Is part of what needs to be overcome, along with the hindrances. Quite hard to do if someone is stuck just being mindful of the physical body, let alone walking around the place. Very compatible with absorption though, with Kasinas.

“One person perceives the wind kasiṇa above, below, across, non-dual and measureless.”

Take wind here to be the breath, if someone has reached Jhana via mindfulness of breathing.
People will see what they want to see... I just see concentrated states... I don't see the word jhana or the accompanying similes.

You 'know' you're right... I 'know' I'm right... it's an impasse.

Have you no thoughts on the original OP regarding the Anapanasati Sutta and how Ahahn Brahm presents it?

Is training oneself impossible in the tetrads?

Does the body and breath disappear after the first jhana (first/second tetras)?

Does your own 'will' disappear?
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Re: MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

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Rahula wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 1:03 pm It seems you both agree on one thing.
No. We do not agree. This is impossible. BB did not post about the breath not perceptible in jhana. My point is Ajahn Brahm has openly contradicted himself because he says breathing is not perceptible in jhana yet Ajahn Brahm also says mindfulness with breathing includes jhana. BB never said this. BB appears to believe breathing is perceptible in jhana. Therefore, AB and DD agree on jhana but DD disagrees with AB & BB on Anapanasati. AB & BB are wrong about Anapanasati. AB appears ignorant about Anapanasati because it appears AB only ever practised the higher path. Where as BB appears ignorant about Anapanasati because of never entering any Buddhist path. Its like AB cannot see Kathmandu because he is on top of Mt Everest and there are other mountains blocking the view. Where as BB cannot see Kathmandu because he is stuck in the swampy muddy low lands. :ugeek:
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:02 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

Post by DooDoot »

BrokenBones wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:41 am 52 minutes backtracks on what ‘trains oneself’ means
The above appears to be wrong view, namely, believing a Self trains a Self.

The training of Anapanasati is based in "letting go of self" ("vossagga"), as follows:
There is the case where a monk develops mindfulness as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, maturing in relinquishment (vossagga).

Anapanasati Sutta
In summary, you started this topic but it appears the major objections in your OP are wrong. You choose the Anapanasati Sutta to refute the white light nimitta, which is illogical, because Anapanasati is not about jhana.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

Post by Rahula »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:43 am AB & BB are wrong about Anapanasati. AB appears ignorant about Anapanasati because it appears AB only ever practised the higher path. Where as BB appears ignorant about Anapanasati because of never entering any Buddhist path.
I'm learning something from your discussion as I also had similar questions. I'm [trying] to be open-minded and learn.

I'm asking this out of respect, just to learn from you.

When you say 'AB & BB are wrong about Anapanasati', how do I make sure that you are also not wrong.
What is the method to filter out pure Dhamma?
How do I not get lost and not get confused when there are many opinions on the same topic?

Sometimes I feel like lost and don't know what to believe. Then I switch to Suttas but they are hard to understand sometimes.

Thank you!
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Re: MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

Post by mjaviem »

Rahula wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:07 am ...
How do I not get lost and not get confused when there are many opinions on the same topic?

Sometimes I feel like lost and don't know what to believe. Then I switch to Suttas but they are hard to understand sometimes.
...
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Re: MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

Post by DooDoot »

Rahula wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:07 am When you say 'AB & BB are wrong about Anapanasati', how do I make sure that you are also not wrong.
Thank you. I already logically explained my view as follows:

1. The Anapanasati Sutta includes knowing in & out breathing in every stage of its practise. Read the sutta, here.

2. Ajahn Brahm has said there is no knowing of in & out breathing in jhana. This appears correct because the suttas never mention breathing as an experience in jhana, for example, here.

3. Ajahn Brahm has said in the video link posted by BrokenBones that Anapanasati includes jhana. Therefore, Ajahn Brahm has contradicted himself because Ajahn Brahm has said there is no knowing of in & out breathing in jhana. If there is no knowing of breathing in jhana then there can be no jhana in Anapanasati because "Anapanasati" means "mindfulness with breathing". "Anapanasati" does not mean "mindfulness without breathing". :)
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: MN118 Anapanasati Sutta - no mention of white lights

Post by Rahula »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:14 am
3. Ajahn Brahm has said in the video link posted by BrokenBones that Anapanasati includes jhana. Therefore, Ajahn Brahm has contradicted himself because Ajahn Brahm has said there is no knowing of in & out breathing in jhana. If there is no knowing of breathing in jhana then there can be no jhana in Anapanasati because "Anapanasati" means "mindfulness with breathing". "Anapanasati" does not mean "mindfulness without breathing". :)
Yes, I understood your point.

Is it a big deal or is AB just moving forward towards explaining Jahna after explaining about Anapanasati?
Do we have to consider this as "AB contradicted himself" ? :shrug:
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