Ethical choices causing rebirth

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asahi
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Ethical choices causing rebirth

Post by asahi »

This quote is from SC . It says ethical choices or actions causing rebirth , is this correct ? Neutral actions doesnt cause rebirth ?

Thanks

This is because rebirth depends on a beginningless stream of ethical choices (i.e kamma) rooted in the fundamental ignorance of the four Noble truths and its liberating implications.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Ethical choices causing rebirth

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings asahi,

Kamma is person-al... so to have kammic potency, action must have some kind of self-view or asmi-mana ("I am" conceit) associated with it. For this reason, even "good kamma" is known to be "siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions" (see MN117).

Abhidhammikas represent the absence of this asmi-mana in the arahant by speaking of kiriya (functional) cittas, devoid of kammic potency.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
asahi
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Re: Ethical choices causing rebirth

Post by asahi »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:45 am Greetings asahi,

Kamma is person-al... so to have kammic potency, action must have some kind of self-view or asmi-mana ("I am" conceit) associated with it. For this reason, even "good kamma" is known to be "siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions" (see MN117).

Abhidhammikas represent the absence of this asmi-mana in the arahant by speaking of kiriya (functional) cittas, devoid of kammic potency.

Metta,
Paul. :)
In other words , actions colored with asmi-mana are the cause of rebirth ?
Neutral action has asmi-mana ?
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Re: Ethical choices causing rebirth

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
asahi wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:59 am In other words , actions colored with asmi-mana are the cause of rebirth ?
To be born, identification is required.
asahi wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:59 am Neutral action has asmi-mana ?
That depends. Certainly not if done by an arahant.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
asahi
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Re: Ethical choices causing rebirth

Post by asahi »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:02 am
To be born, identification is required.


That depends. Certainly not if done by an arahant.
Therefore , kamma or action is consider secondary not a direct cause for rebirth , while the craving and clinging (in creating kamma) are the causes that led to rebirth ? Because for an arahant unwholesome deeds are not possible but of wholesome action is still possible .
Pls explain any example that how an neutral action led to rebirth ?
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Re: Ethical choices causing rebirth

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
asahi wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:07 am Pls explain any example that how an neutral action led to rebirth ?
To cross the road is neutral. To step over a fallen tree is neutral. But what was the mindset, and was it imbued with the "I am" conceit?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
asahi
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Re: Ethical choices causing rebirth

Post by asahi »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:17 am Greetings,
asahi wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:07 am Pls explain any example that how an neutral action led to rebirth ?
To cross the road is neutral. To step over a fallen tree is neutral. But what was the mindset, and was it imbued with the "I am" conceit?

Metta,
Paul. :)
Say if feel thirsty and drinking waters , is that not of body natural reflex ?
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Re: Ethical choices causing rebirth

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

I'm not sure what you mean, but I'm sure the Buddha drank water, did not have "I am" conceit and was not reborn on account of drinking water.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Ethical choices causing rebirth

Post by asahi »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:23 am
reborn
Btw , i assume you dont mean rebirth but reborn mentally ?
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Re: Ethical choices causing rebirth

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

What is re-born?

Is there an "I am" to be re-born, in one who is not an arahant? Do they make person-al kamma?

Is there an "I am" to be re-born, in one who is an arahant? Do they make person-al kamma?

Kamma causes re-birth.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Ethical choices causing rebirth

Post by asahi »

Sorry i dont understand your statements , could you elaborates ? Earlier you used reborn . Now you say kamma causes rebirth . Are you using both equally ? :roll:
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Re: Ethical choices causing rebirth

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
asahi wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:42 am Sorry i dont understand your statements , could you elaborates ?
Kamma causes re-birth, and being devoid of kamma, arahants have nothing to be re-born.

Understand that as you will. Different people understand these matters differently and can be quite attached to their understanding, so I'm speaking what is true regardless of how one interprets these matters.
asahi wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:42 am Earlier you used reborn . Now you say kamma causes rebirth . Are you using both equally ?
Only the tense differs.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
asahi
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Re: Ethical choices causing rebirth

Post by asahi »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:45 am
Understand that as you will. Different people understand these matters differently and can be quite attached to their understanding, so I'm speaking what is true regardless of how one interprets these matters.
But i have difficulty understand your posts .
Thanks anyway .
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Re: Ethical choices causing rebirth

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
asahi wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:33 am But i have difficulty understand your posts .
No matter. Stick with what you know and keep refining your understanding. :thumbsup:
asahi wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:33 am Thanks anyway .
:anjali:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Ethical choices causing rebirth

Post by Bundokji »

It depends by what you mean by rebirth. For example, you could interpret a situation you find your self in as a result of an ethical choice you made in the past. However, if you take rebirth to be self continuity, then reducing self continuity to intentional actions or ethical choices can be mistaken. For example, you do not always breath intentionally, but breathing is a necessary condition for self continuity.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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