It depends what you mean by rebirth

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retrofuturist
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It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

I read the following comment on the Internet...
Bundokji wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:03 am It depends by what you mean by rebirth.
... and thought that it warranted its own topic.


What do you mean by rebirth?

Re-incarnation of a soul in a new body? (Wouldn't that be at odds with the Buddha's teaching of anatta?)

Transmigration of a being in samsara? (Satta [being] has a certain meaning in the Buddhadhamma - is that what you mean? Or something else - what is it?)

A new person created by some previous consciousness? (If so, what was "re"-d exactly?)

Transmigration of kamma? (If so, what was "re"-d exactly?)

One moment of consciousness giving life to a new moment of consciousness? (OK, but do you also call it rebirth when that happens continuously in the same body? If not, what was "re"-d exactly?)

Some other form of continuity? (OK, but do you also call it rebirth when that continuity occurs in the same body? If not, what was "re"-d exactly?)


What do you mean by rebirth?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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robertk
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by robertk »

The dispeller of Delusion (pali text society) trans. Bhikku Nanamoli:
page 121, volume1:
"this division too should be known, namely momentary death (khanika-
marana), conventional death (samutti marana) and death as cutting
off (samuccheda-marana)
also path of purification xliii “
There are three kinds of death: death as
cutting off, momentary death, and conventional death. Death as cutting off belongs
to those whose cankers are exhausted [ Arahants]. Momentary death is
that of each consciousness of the cognitive series beginning with life-continuum
consciousness, which arise each immediately on the cessation of the one preceding.
Conventional death is that of all (so-called) living beings
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by Bundokji »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:28 am Re-incarnation of a soul in a new body? (Wouldn't that be at odds with the Buddha's teaching of anatta?)
It would be at odd with the Buddha's teachings of anatta only in the strict sense of assuming anatta (as a term) to be corresponding to reality. Negating the soul theory only made the question of self continuity wide open: what is it that continues? and why it is so important to emphasize that it is not a soul or an essence of some sort?
Transmigration of a being? (Satta has a certain meaning in the Buddhadhamma - is that what you mean?)
To frame the question of satta "to what extent is one said to be a being" does neither confirm nor deny satta by making it a question of degree, not of kind. This seems to be inline with the idea of gradual training that craving for a being can be reduced gradually by avoiding the extremes of being and non-being, but gives rise to problems of its own: choosing the middle path/avoiding the extremes can go indefinitely as one will continue to be presented with ethical choice/extremes to be avoided.
A new person created by some previous consciousness? (If so, what was "re"-d exactly?)
This has to do with the belief in the primacy of consciousness. In this context, the one who gets re-d is the one who chose not to commit suicide.
Transmigration of kamma? (If so, what was "re"-d exactly?)
If kamma is intention, one cannot imagine intentionality without becoming. Also one cannot imagine becoming without existence in time of which the idea of transmigration depends on. So, kamma depends on transmigration, and transmigration depends on kamma. The dynamic interdependence between the two is rebirth. What gets re-d is integral to the process, cannot be separated from it by definition.
One moment of consciousness giving life to a new moment of consciousness? (OK, but do you also call it rebirth when that happens continuously in the same body? If not, what was "re"-d exactly?)
Defining a moment of consciousness begets a beginning and an end of that moment. The length of that moment depends on how this moment is being measured. Between beginning and end, there is a space. This space can be divided indefinitely to create new beginnings and ends.
What do you mean by rebirth?
It depends on the context of which the term rebirth is being used.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by cappuccino »

I recollected my manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two... five, ten... fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion, many eons of cosmic contraction & expansion: 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus I remembered my manifold past lives in their modes & details.

Bhaya-bherava Sutta
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by nmjojola »

From my point of view it's pretty straight forward, it means that, according to the Buddha, unless there is cessation of craving at the moment of death, you will be born again.
It's been my experience that when the suttas are interpreted from a strictly phenomenological approach, reconciliation between rebirth and anatta presents no particular difficulty; for it avoids all the issues (mostly of contradiction) that arise when the Dhamma (especially as pertains anatta) is interpreted metaphysically (especially when considering the matter of rebirth).
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mjaviem
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by mjaviem »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:28 am ...
A new person created by some previous consciousness? (If so, what was "re"-d exactly?)

Transmigration of kamma? (If so, what was "re"-d exactly?)

One moment of consciousness giving life to a new moment of consciousness? (OK, but do you also call it rebirth when that happens continuously in the same body? If not, what was "re"-d exactly?)

Some other form of continuity? (OK, but do you also call it rebirth when that continuity occurs in the same body? If not, what was "re"-d exactly?)
...
To me so far, rebirth means a new existence. Whenever something specific comes to be I say it is born but to me what is reborn is only the generalisation of what has come to be. For example, when I was born there was the rebirth of a being, I don't say I was reborn nor that when I die I will be reborn because there isn't a self to be reborn in the first place. But it's important that my actions bring good results so no one suffers because of me. Does a new being comes to be when I die? How to explain the birth of a person? the birth of a being? Well, you won't find the answer in the Suttas, there's no genomics explanation of how the body is born from parents nor one for the mind. I think it's out of scope and irrelevant for the purpose of liberation.

I don't think there's a transmigration of kamma, only that any kamma comes with consequences for somebody (yourself and others). I'm heir of the choices made by my ancestors and society in the past (and present). Does one of those ancestors or people in society was me in a past life? How can you say so, but it certainly there you have many beings clinging to existence like I am now.

When there is no self what is important is the wellfare of everybody, not only us.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by DNS »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:28 am What do you mean by rebirth?
Sounds like some good options/choices there for a possible poll; not that the majority decides truth though.
Re-incarnation of a soul in a new body? (Wouldn't that be at odds with the Buddha's teaching of anatta?)
Yes, that would be at odds with anatta.
Transmigration of a being in samsara? (Satta [being] has a certain meaning in the Buddhadhamma - is that what you mean? Or something else - what is it?)
Probably the majority of all Buddhists believe this, whether they are right or wrong is another matter, but I believe most Buddhists fit into this answer.
A new person created by some previous consciousness? (If so, what was "re"-d exactly?)
No, there are no blank slates, everything conditioned by a previous moment. Nothing is created out of nothing.
Transmigration of kamma? (If so, what was "re"-d exactly?)
Kamma is what was "re"-d. (If this option is correct.)
One moment of consciousness giving life to a new moment of consciousness? (OK, but do you also call it rebirth when that happens continuously in the same body? If not, what was "re"-d exactly?)
This is probably the Classical Theravada view, as pointed out above with robertk's post. DO can be moment to moment and also over lifetimes.
What do you mean by rebirth?
A continuity transfer of kamma, mind-stream, not a soul or eternal citta, but an impermanent mind-stream. I recognize my view may be at odds with Classical Theravada but I'm much closer to Classical Theravada view than the secular buddhist view that the Buddha didn't teach literal rebirth.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by Ceisiwr »

My only thought for now is that the Buddha set out 12-links. He also taught which link needs to be undone, namely the 1st. He did not say the last link, death, is how it is undone. It follows that death is not the end of dependent origination, only the removal of ignorance is. Regarding birth, it obviously refers to the manifestation of the aggregates in any given sphere based clinging (I treat the form-aggregate here to be any object of the 6 senses, as per MN 28). For example, if one is an annihilationist earnestly striving to end their own existence then they might obtain the attainment of Nothingness and so have birth into that realm, contra to what they were actually striving for since there is a manifestation of the aggregates even in that attainment. I treat this example of birth being very real but very much one that occurs during meditation. When one is approaching the end of life this craving and intention establishes consciousness (always new) in another set of aggregates, for whatever duration in whatever sphere according to one's kamma. So for our annihilationist, instead of being annihilated there is merely a continuation of dependent origination and so dukkha in the formless. The same for everyday worldly people, but with different outcomes in different spheres based on their intentions and attainments (or lack thereof).
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:27 pm So for our annihilationist, instead of being annihilated, there is merely a continuation
they really believe death is annihilation


with no special requirement
Last edited by cappuccino on Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:32 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:27 pm So for our annihilationist, instead of being annihilated, there is merely a continuation
no they really believe death is annihilation


with no special requirement
Yes, which is part of the delusion. The annihilationists thought they could annihilate themselves with the formless. The Buddha merely pointed out that thinking there was a self was part of the problem, if not the problem, to begin with. They had nothing to annihilate but their own ignorance and irrational thinking.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:34 pm The annihilationists thought they could annihilate themselves with the formless.
that doesn't make sense


the formless is a series of realms
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:35 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:34 pm The annihilationists thought they could annihilate themselves with the formless.
that doesn't make sense


the formless is a series of realms
I'll simply repeat what I posted to you in another topic:

It would be a mistake to think the sphere of infinite consciousness is the same as the Brahman/Atman idea of the Upanishads, since the oldest records we have of these attainments (the Buddhist suttas/agamas) pair them up with the annihilationists. Check out DN 1. Part of the basis for views for the annihilationists are the formless attainments. They are not matched with anyone else. Further evidence is found in the suttas (im unsure about the agamas) which ties the annihilationists to them, for the most part. The eternalists seem to have preferred the Jhānā, and we can possibly detect hints of this in the Upanishads themselves:

यदा पञ्चावतिष्ठन्ते ज्ञानानि मनसा सह ।
बुद्धिश्च न विचेष्टते तामाहुः परमां गतिम् ॥ १० ॥

yadā pañcāvatiṣṭhante jñānāni manasā saha |
buddhiśca na viceṣṭate tāmāhuḥ paramāṃ gatim ||

When the five organs of perception become still, together with the mind,
and the intellect ceases to be active: that is called the highest state.


Kaṭhopaniṣad

The formless are all about deconstructing reality. It seems the annihilationists thought they could escape dukkha by annihilating the self with them until there was literally "Nothing" or "Neither-sañña-nor-non-sañña" was left. Obviously they were mistaken, since even with nevasaññānāsaññāyatana there is still a concept and a mind cognising it and so still the aggregates, clinging and the very Being the annihilationists could never hope to get away from.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:40 pm It would be a mistake to think the sphere of infinite consciousness is the same as the Brahman/Atman idea of the Upanishads
rebirth in infinite consciousness is from identifying with consciousness


which is what Advaita teaches


alternatively they identify with infinite nothingness


sometimes with infinite space


also they expect these are forever states of mind


however, these states of mind will cease
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:42 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:40 pm It would be a mistake to think the sphere of infinite consciousness is the same as the Brahman/Atman idea of the Upanishads
rebirth in infinite consciousness is from identifying with consciousness


which is exactly what Advaita teaches


alternatively they identify with infinite nothingness


sometimes with infinite space


also they expect these are forever states of mind


however, these states of mind arise and will cease
I don't care much here what the later Vedanta teaches. The oldest records of the formless attainments match them with the annihilationists, both explicitly and implicitly. I would wager that the meditation of choice for the Rishis of the Upanishads was the Jhānā or one among them.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:45 pm I don't care much here what the later Vedanta teaches.
Advaita always taught formless meditation


Annihilationism is just a belief death will solve everything


which people often think
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