It depends what you mean by rebirth

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ceisiwr
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:47 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:45 pm I don't care much here what the later Vedanta teaches.
Advaita always taught formless meditation


annihilaitonism is just a belief death will solve everything


which people often think
I think the annihilationists of the Buddha's time were more sophisticated than we give them credit for. Many were obviously ascetics, so they likely practiced some form of meditation. It seems rather than viewing annihilation as something that just happens it was something to be actively strived for. It had to be made to happen. There seems to be quite a bit of evidence the Buddha started out as an annihilationist, and that Āḷāra Kālāma & Uddaka Rāmaputta were of that persuasion. There also seems to be a more logical pathway between the Buddha's view of life being dukkha, wanting to escape it and the doctrines of annihilation than between that outlook and the eternalists with their holding onto existence.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:54 pm, edited 4 times in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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cappuccino
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by cappuccino »

the Blessed One wrote:If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism [the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness].
the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness


from Ananda Sutta
Last edited by cappuccino on Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by cappuccino »

death is the annihilation


that's all
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Ceisiwr
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

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cappuccino wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:52 pm
the Blessed One wrote:If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism [the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness].
the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness

from Ananda Sutta
The [...] bit is the translator's insertion. It's not in the text itself.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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cappuccino
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:53 pm the translator's insertion. It's not in the text itself.
your interpretation is ignorant of the actual formless realms


you want to apply that confusion to others
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by cappuccino »

when you believe death will solve things


then you do not meditate
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Ceisiwr
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:53 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:53 pm the translator's insertion. It's not in the text itself.
your interpretation is ignorant of the actual formless realms


you want to apply that confusion to others
What a bizarre comment.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:55 pm when you believe death will solve things


then you do not meditate
As I said, the annihilationists seem to have been more sophisticated than that. There isn't even anything to say they did not believe in reincarnation. It wouldn't be incompatible with the belief.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:56 pm There isn't even anything to say they did not believe in reincarnation.
annihilate negates reincarnation


what the hell
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:57 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:56 pm There isn't even anything to say they did not believe in reincarnation. It wouldn't be incompatible with the belief.
annihilate negates reincarnation


what the hell
Let me rephrase. It is entirely possible they viewed annihilation as a means to end reincarnation. There is nothing inherently contradictory in believing that if there is repeated lives full of dukkha then destroying the self is a means to end all that. This is where the formless likely then came in. As a means to destroy the self, thus ending the cycle of dukkha forever.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:59 pm As a means to destroy the self
they believe no self


hence they look forward to annihilation
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by cappuccino »

Buddhists often believe no self

however…
Ananda Sutta wrote:"Now then, Venerable Gotama, is there a self?"

When this was said, the Blessed One was silent.

"Then is there no self?"

A second time, the Blessed One was silent.

Then Vacchagotta the wanderer got up from his seat and left.
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by Bundokji »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:42 pm rebirth in infinite consciousness is from identifying with consciousness


which is what Advaita teaches


alternatively they identify with infinite nothingness


sometimes with infinite space


also they expect these are forever states of mind


however, these states of mind will cease
This must be cappuccino's longest post since joining the forum!

Sorry to interrupt. Please continue :popcorn:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:01 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:59 pm As a means to destroy the self
they believe no self


hence they look forward to annihilation
The reason the Buddha did not say "there is no self" was due to Vacchagotta's confusion. He would have taken it as there being a self which is destroyed. Although I can't fully translate the parallels for this, it seems they also take this line. However, even if there were annihilationists around who viewed annihilation as something that just happens that in no way means they were all like that. I mean, the eternalists had plenty of variations on their doctrine. The same could be true for the annihilationists. In fact, when we look at the suttas it even states this (DN 1 for example).
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: It depends what you mean by rebirth

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The agama parallels to said sutta, based on DeepL translation:
This is what I heard.

At that time, the Buddha was in the bamboo grove of Karanda on Mount Lingriva in the king's shed. He went to the Buddha's place, asked him about it, and sat down on one side. He said to the Buddha, "Gautama! Do all sentient beings have a self? The Buddha was silent and did not answer. Then he asked, "Is there no self? The Buddha did not answer either. Then the calf thought to himself, "I have asked Gautama Gautama several times what this means, but I have not seen any answer.

Then Ananda served the Buddha and fanned him with his fan. When Ananda heard his words, he said to the Buddha, "World Honored One! Why is the calf silent in answering the question? If he does not answer, then he should say, "If I do not see an answer to my question to the Buddha, does it add to my evil opinion?

The Buddha said to Ānanda, "In the past, when he asked me about all the dharmas, if I had, I would have answered his question. In the past, would I not have said in all scriptures that there is no self? It would be contrary to reason to answer his question because there is no self. What is the reason for this? All dharmas have no self. How can you answer him with me? If so, it will add to his past foolishness. Again, Ananda! If one says that there is a self, one falls into common sense; if one says that there is no self, one falls into disenchantment. If you say that there is a self, you will fall into commonplace; if you say that there is no self, you will fall into the middle way. The Buddha says, "Let go of the two sides, and be in the middle way. Because of being, there is birth, and because of birth, there is old age and death, sorrow, grief and distress, and the gathering of all sufferings. When ignorance is extinguished, action is extinguished; when action is extinguished, knowledge is extinguished; when knowledge is extinguished, name and color are extinguished; when name and color are extinguished, the six senses are extinguished; when the six senses are extinguished, touch is extinguished; when touch is extinguished, suffering is extinguished; when suffering is extinguished, love is extinguished; when love is extinguished, taking is extinguished; when taking is extinguished, having is extinguished; when having is extinguished, birth is extinguished; when birth is extinguished, old age and death are extinguished; when sorrow and suffering are extinguished, the gathering of suffering is extinguished.

After the Buddha had said this, the bhikkhus heard the Buddha's words and followed them with joy.
SA-2 195
This is what I heard.

At that time, the Buddha was living in the bamboo garden of Jalandhar in the king's shed.

At that time, a Buddhist monk came to the Buddha's place, put his palms together and inquired, and when he had done so, he sat down on the side and said to the Buddha, "What is it? Gautama! Why is there a me?

At that time, the World Honored One was silent and did not answer.

And so on and so forth. At that time, the World Honored One also did not answer again and again.

At that time, the Buddhist monk said, "I have asked Guru Shakyamuni three times, but I have not received an answer, so I shall return.

At that time, Venerable Ānanda lived behind the Buddha and held a fan to fan the Buddha. Then Ananda said to the Buddha, "World Honored One! Why did the World Honored One not answer the three questions asked by the Buddhist monks? Does it not add to the evil opinion of the Buddhist monks that they cannot answer the questions they ask?

Buddha said to Ānanda, "If I answer that there is a self, it will increase his evil view; if I answer that there is no self, will his previous obscurantism not increase his obscurantism? If I answer that there is no self, does that not add to his previous delusion? If there was an ego, then it is common, but if it is destroyed now, then it is disenchantment. The Buddha is free from the two sides, and in the middle of the world, he says, "If something is there, it is there; if something arises, it is there; if it arises, it is there; if it arises, it is there; if it arises, it is there; if it arises, it is there; if it arises, it is there; if it arises, it is there.

When the Buddha said this sutra, the venerable Ānanda heard the Buddha's words and followed them with joy.
SA 961

Perhaps someone who is better with Chinese will clear these up for us.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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